Ep 63: Chronic Pain, Plant Medicine: Nova Dean's Transformative Journey

0:00 You're never going to want to, like, think about a month down the road minus going to the pharmacy and going to your doctor's appointments is your whole life. It becomes your whole identity. Chronic pain and kratom allowed me to be myself, you know? Welcome to Kratom Stories, a weekly podcast where we share stories of how this amazing plant has changed our lives. I'm your host, Madeleine Sklar. Each week I'll bring you a new episode featuring interviews with experts, advocates, and everyday people who've experienced the benefits of kratom first hand.

0:43 Join me as we dive deeper into the world of this botanical wonder and discover the amazing stories behind this incredible plant. The Kratom Stories Podcast is presented solely for educational purposes. Neither the podcast nor its host promote or endorse the use of kratom, a substance not yet regulated or approved by the FDA. The views and opinions expressed by guests are theirs alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the host or the podcast. The content is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified healthcare provider with any questions regarding the use of kratom. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to let you know about Kratom Real Talk. It's a new community for positive, uplifting discussions about the power of whole leaf kratom. If you'd like to be part of the conversation and learn more about this plate or contribute your knowledge, go to kratomrealtalk.com.

1:47 So I'm here with Nova, a lady I met through one of our TikTok lives that we do by the way, if you don't know, every Friday. At what time do we do that? At 5:00 Eastern for about an hour. Me and my fellow kratom gals, we get on TikTok, we hang out and do a live Q&A and talk with other fellow kratom consumers is so much fun. And I met my guest today from that. This is Nova, who is a fellow kratom consumer, and I cannot wait to hear more about your story that you're about to share with us in the community, Nova. So thank you so much for taking the time today to come on here and do this. Absolutely. Thank you, Madeline, for this forum and for all that you do for kratom advocacy.

2:30 Thank you. Oh, I appreciate that. Thank you very much. So tell us a little bit about yourself and life before kratom. So I'm a chronic pain patient. I have complex PTSD, bipolar 1, I have systemic lupus erythematosus, discoid lupus, fibromyalgia, degenerative disk disease, rheumatoid arthritis. I have a pretty bad eating disorder and migraines as well as reflex sympathetic dystrophy. When you have an autoimmune disease, you usually have more than one. Like they like to cluster. So I started pain management when I was 13 years old and so opioids at 13. And you know, it's, that's been a journey in and of itself. I'm also 15 years sober from alcohol and I'm very proud of that.

3:36 I'm a former librarian. I retired and went on disability due to my lupus back in 2021. I love the Pacific Northwest and I love the ocean and music and yoga and metaphysical studies. Oracle reading, Bakey stone medicine, collecting crystals. When you have a chronic disease, let alone a bunch of them, you have to find things that make you happy. And laughter, family time, those things, that's all a part of my life. That's a part of who I am. I live with my partner of six years in Ohio, and we have a beautiful cat. And yeah, to get into a little bit of where my kratom journey started, I was losing who I was on pain management. It had gotten to the point where they had me on compound medications.

4:38 They had me on transdermal fentanyl patches like Oxy 80s. It just way beyond, you know, because my tolerance was so high from using opioids, prescribed opioids from the age of 13. And like that got harder to navigate the older I got. And after I quit drinking in 2009, I really started to step back and take a look at my life and see how much the opioids were were stealing my light. And like to the point where I worked 15 minutes away and it took me an hour and a half to drive there because I'd have to pull off to the side of the road multiple times because the medication was too intense.

5:34 And so a friend from Oregon told me about kratom in 2012. And I was really cautious, you know, having had two years of opioid sobriety under my belt. They explained to me it works on the same, some of the same receptors. And they, they told me what their experience was like, that it helped them with chronic pain. And I researched heavily for about two years, and when my pain had escalated with the lupus, which was still undiagnosed, they had me down as like mixed connective tissue disease and like other rare diseases because they couldn't pin it down. Lupus requires like blood work and something called Ana factor. And most of the time they want that Ana to be positive, but it isn't necessarily indicative of a lupus diagnosis because there are so many factors.

6:41 And so we hadn't gotten to that point where we had started aggressive lupus treatment. So my pain was escalating and I didn't know what to do. And at this point, I had already terminated my relationship with my pain management specialist. Looking back now in retrospect, especially understanding more the opioid epidemic, I see that that doctor was a pill mill and see it at the time. But I see it now in my older age. And I was really proud of myself when I walked out of that appointment, even though I was in miserable pain and I was getting ready to get an epidural. I was just like, you're fired.

7:32 It was empowering. And that's kind of what kratom did was empower me again. You know, I started consuming in the fall of 2014 for periodic breakthrough pain. Again, very cautious with my use. It was only when I was in absolute misery before the diagnosis and I would be very periodic about it, like maybe once a month if I couldn't get off the floor or something like that. And also it hadn't progressed to where it is now, like systemically just 10 years ago. So yeah, my journey started with kratom 10 years ago and when the pain management doctor wanted to put me back on opioids, I terminated them and went with kratom instead and I never looked back and it changed my life.

8:30 That had to have been just an amazing feeling to fire your pain management doctor and use a plant instead of all those opioids, especially when you're at such a high dose. Absolutely. It was a relief for me. It was a relief for me, my family, and it was relatively unknown to my medical team as well. So it was like a process of discovery together through this kratom journey. Like me, you know, sharing with, for example, my rheumatologist and then her going and doing independent research about kratom, looking at case studies and educating herself. And I appreciated that, you know, my whole medical team, my psychiatrist, my clinician, my rheumatologist, everyone down to my urologist, everybody was on board with me transitioning away from that.

9:35 And I've had other ways of pain management. I have a spinal cord stimulator. I don't know if you're familiar with those. You know, I've had that since 2007. I was really aggressive with my pain management, did a lot of physical therapy, aquatic therapy, you know, biofeedback, the whole thing. Like I went through the whole circle of pain management. And this is where I landed with plant medicine, and I'm so grateful that it's just a tea. Right, it's all it is, is tea leaves. It's just a. It tastes like. Dirty.

10:18 Like. Very earthy. It's very earthy. I like that description quite a bit. I have a little ritual with my my kratom and I've always consumed it as a tea and I look forward to it actually. Like I draw Reiki symbols. I do energy work I draw Reiki symbols like over my teacup to be like please help me and help my body like send. Owl, I like that. Into that medicine, you know, I will like pay over my bags when they get here and be like medicine, please help me to connect to the medicine on the spiritual level has been like something new over these last three or four years. And I like that aspect of it.

11:13 It gives me comfort and it's part of my daily routine and it's a part of me being grateful to the plant. And that's something that like, I don't think about having gratitude for pharmaceuticals, you know, but I have this gratitude. It's like care for my heart for kratom. I'm so grateful it comes out of the earth to help me. How it works on everything, I have no idea. It's like I barely understand the science behind it. But it it's like a cure all, you know, and it just gives you a quality of life.

11:54 It really does. You make such great points here. Who is grateful for their opioids? I never felt grateful taking my opioids every day for my chronic pain, but I do feel so grateful every day when I take my kratom. So I totally relate to what you're saying. I'm sure others listening to this can relate too because it's a plant, you know? Plant medicine is helping so many of us. Yeah. And I think we're seeing this like there's a sea change happening where people really want to go that route. They want to go towards plant medicine and holistic medicines and functional medicines, especially long term chronic pain patients. We've been through it all and we know that there's more out there like, and this is just one thing that helps. There's so many things you can have in your tool kit, but it is it is impressive to me how over the last five years the community has grown so much.

12:58 I think a lot of people found kratom through COVID. I think a lot of people address their addictions through COVID. I know a lot of people that I'm friends with got off Suboxone with kratom, got off hard drugs with kratom and have stayed sober. And as a, a person that has about, you know, a good decade at least of sobriety, like that really resonates with me. And I think the that's a part of the community as well. There's so many different people use kratom. Like, my goodness, like there are grandmothers that use kratom.

13:39 When you start going through these forums and looking through what the American Cratian Association has to offer, like you see these congressional hearings and these people's testimonies, and they're like, you know, normal people like, and there's this, I feel destigmatization starting to happen with Craten, like ever since the FDA kind of backed down a few years ago. Like I forget exactly when it was, I think it was. 20 It started in 2016 where they tried to schedule it, but they kept trying a few more times after that and were unsuccessful every time.

14:26 Yeah. And I think that they realized because it helps so many people stay off opioids and we haven't national epidemic. I mean, I saw it at the library. I, I watched people OD in my library, like in the streets, like it's everywhere. So like anything that we can do to have other things in place for those people, I do a lot of harm reduction, like as volunteer work. And that's something that I'm constantly being like, have you considered this? Like, this is something that really worked to manage my pain, you know, and I tell them my opioid story and my behavioral health story because I feel like that's something that I don't want to discount here.

15:14 It's like it's not just chronic pain. It really helps with PTSD. I'm a sexual violence survivor and have incredibly bad panic disorder and bipolar 1 and it really helps regulate my mood, especially the yellow kratom like which for me was kind of like it took a few years to discover yellow kratom that I mostly was staring the traditional 3 and then that stepped in around 2019 I started using yellow kratom as well. Yeah, man, the benefits are so much better than the negative aspects of the previous medications that I was on. Reduced anxiety, better sleep.

16:09 And sleep is so important when you have a, like, stomach disease, like lupus because the fatigue is unmatched. Like, like, you can barely crawl to the coffee pot in the morning. You're stuck in bed with stiffness for hours, but you get that kratom in ya and it really makes a difference. Mood regulation is a huge benefit for me. Yeah. More energy overall, more focus. Brain fog is a symptom of lupus that I have, and the white kratom really helps me with focus. Also some of the late super greens really help and it reduces muscular and joint pain for me. Systemic relief.

17:02 I can't use that phrase enough. Ache. It's I, it's like. You get a lot of benefits from kratom with all the different things you have going on with you. It's not just for your chronic pain. It sounds like you're getting every aspect with your medical issues coming from this one plant. Prior to kratom, were you taking other medications besides opioids for all your other health issues? Oh yeah, I was on 11 different medications. And were you able to, when you switched to kratom, were you able to stop all those or most of those? I was able to drop 4 medications. I was able to drop my my muscle relaxer and like my opioids, which I was on two of those and I was able to drop down on the benzo that I take.

18:05 And that was a big surprise for all of us because we didn't think that that would be an outcome. And they also had me, of course, 'cause they have everybody at some point, right? Gabapin. Oh. Yeah, Oh yeah, of course. So useless. Cut. I could do a whole podcast on how stupid gabapin is but like. They prescribe it to everybody for everything. Everything and it's approved for dogs and shingles. I heard, I heard that like. You know, so I was able to come on with all of those and with kratom.

18:45 I bet your doctors were so surprised. First of all, it's amazing you had all these doctors on your medical team that were open minded to kratom because so many times we hear that people talk to their doctors and they're like, Oh no, you can't take that. I read something about how dangerous that is. And I've heard stories where doctors have said it's either me or kratom. Like you pick one. It's like, wow. But you you had very open minded doctors and that they also went and researched it on their own. That's still amazing to hear. I have a fantastic medical team and I think that that's one of your, your greatest protections. I was like, weapons isn't the right word.

19:27 It's one of your greatest protections. Like you want to be your own advocate, but you need them to be on board with you and advocate for you as well. And there was no data saying that it was a bad idea. They couldn't come up with anything being like this is actually like not something that we want Nova on, you know, and gradually everybody was on board. It took about a year of me using very sporadically consuming and. I wanted all of them to agree. I didn't want anybody to any of my medical team or my family, my partner.

20:16 I wanted everybody to be on the same page with me. This was like a treatment that really was going to help save my life because the reality of the amount of comorbidities that I have and to try to imagine not being on any of those pending pain medications. I don't know if I would have survived. Like I don't know if I would have been able to make it to where I am now. When I think about pre lupus diagnosis, those like roughly like six years. When I think about that period that I wasn't consuming kratom for nearly five years of that period, I don't know how I got through it.

21:10 Like sure will. I don't think I could do it now. And especially after my experiences with sexual violence, it was, you know, and with bipolar also, that's like one of the leading causes of death. So I really mean it when I say the IT curbed my suicidal ideation because when you're in that much pain, you do not want to like live. You don't want to make it from hour to hour, well done, day-to-day. And you're never going to want to think about a month down the road minus going to the pharmacy and going to your doctor's appointments is your whole life. It becomes your whole identity.

22:01 Chronic pain and kratom allowed me to be myself, you know? That's so your story is just incredible. I want to go back to when you first said you heard about kratom. I think you said a friend told you about it 2012, so 2 years before you actually started it. How did that come up? Like how did they tell you about kratom back then? Oh, this is like one of my oldest friends and they were living in Oregon and they had been exposed to kratom. They had long term kind of pain and major depressive disorder. And they just picked up the phone one day to check in on me because they knew that I was struggling and I had detoxed like medically stepped down off of all of my pain medication. And they knew that I was in an incredible amount of pain because my then husband had reached out to them to let them know that I was in trouble.

23:09 And he, he really helped me understand that there was something else out there. And I always trusted him when it came to natural remedies. Like he got me into like lion's mane and chaga and Rishi and like all of those good things. Ashwagandha, you know, so he, he was always a great resource and I trusted him. And it took me through the long period for me to be OK with it because I was worried hearing, oh, it bonds to the opioid receptors. I don't want to feel high. And that was like, to go from, like, feeling incredibly high all the time to the point where I couldn't function. And I was like, drooling.

23:59 I was so overmedicated, you know, I didn't want to go back there. So I was very, very cautious when I started out. But if it hadn't been for my friend telling me about it, I don't know how many years it would have taken me to find it. It was divine timing. It really was. That's what it sounds like. And back in 2012 when you first heard of it there, there wasn't a lot of information out there about it. I'm sure you said earlier you did like 2 years of researching it. Was it just hard to find it? Because, I mean, when I discovered in 2019, there wasn't nearly as much information as there is now, but I can't even imagine what it would have been like in 2012.

24:41 It was incredibly hard to find information. My brother's wife is from Thailand and I started to ask her what like she knew about kratom and she gave me so much information and and that was really helpful. Like being a librarian, I mean, I can research with the best of them. So I was looking at any abstracts to any trials that had happened, any information I could find at all. And that's why it took me those two years to feel comfortable because it took so long to access information. And as my own advocate, I want to have as much information as possible before I make any changes to like my day-to-day medical care.

25:40 So yeah, it was really rough. There's so much more out there now, like again with it just feeling more destigmatized. Even in the last couple years, last like 2 years, you hear about these kratom bars popping up in New York City and like, I'm like, what? That's, that's awesome. Actually. You can just step in somewhere and have some kratom, meet some friends, like, but they're like, yeah, it just doesn't seem like people are as afraid of it. And I feel like once the FDA, it was 2016, like, once the FDA like, stepped down, like, there started to be more information Now with the manufacturing practices that that got a little sketchy there for a while. It's sourcing good Kratom was hard for a while, but once I found my rhythm and I found my vendors and I found my strains like that really helped that.

26:47 Just learning really. Yeah, 'cause it can take some trial and error to just figure out which kind, which color, how much to dose. But let me ask you this, So you hear about in 2012, you did a bunch of research, you finally started it in 2014. What made you finally decide to just go for it and try it? I was in tremendous pain and my rheumatologist and I didn't know what to do. And she wanted to, she was like, do you want opioids? And I was like, I think I have another option. I'm going to tell you about it. And I did. And she was like, let's give it a try.

27:29 Let's give it a month. Like breakthrough pain only like so like 7 out of 10 pain when it gets that high, try it like when your pain level is out of reach like that, go for it. And that's when I was like, OK, this actually really works for that level of pain. And I didn't expect that, especially for it to have that ceiling where I did not feel intoxicated. Like that was brand new to me. Like, I mean, my feet felt warm. That was a weird side effect of cranium that I had to get used to.

28:12 I was like, feet are sweaty. I haven't. Heard of that one before, that's interesting. Like that's just me. I don't know if that's just helping push inflammation out of my body or what, but that was where that's where I started with that. That's amazing that you like, you know, you and your doctor talked about it and you just went for it to see how how well it would work. Did did you get results right away when you started or did like how long did it take you to figure out what kind, what dose and all that? I had the hardest time even figuring out how to dose. Like so like I would read like these forums and they'd be like toss and wash and I'm like, that sounds like the cinnamon challenge. I don't know if I can do that.

29:01 Like I feel like that's just going to come right back out. So I, I started with tea and I used a teaspoon to measure and I just kind of trusted my guy and started with one teaspoon and worked up from there to where I got to the like therapeutic level that I needed. And it was really a matter of knowing what my pain scale is on a certain day is going to definitely affect the dosage that I do. So it doesn't have to be so regimented.

29:45 Some days I'll have 5 grams, some days I'll have 10. Some days I'll have no grams at all. Like those are my favorite days because that means I'm having a good day and but I still have that gratitude for the plant. I'm like, I don't need you today. Isn't that great? Nice feeling I bet and let me ask you this because all my tik toks people are always like oh it's addicting and you just wait till you stop and you're going to have withdrawals. So on days where you don't take it, do you feel any withdrawals from it? I do not actually. And like I think that comes from taking tolerance breaks. Like there'll be periods where I'm using it every day. Like for the last three months I've used it every day and before that I was using it maybe once a week for about 3 or 4 months prior to that every day.

30:47 So it just depends. But I've never had any withdrawal symptoms like I don't. Yeah, and I know everybody's different. People are affected differently. It sounds like you tolerate it really well. You listen to your body and that's how you know how much to take on a day-to-day basis. And you take breaks when you're not in pain. It's amazing to hear. And you're not suffering from any issues on days you don't take kratom at all. So it sounds like you're doing everything right and you're not overusing it. And you know, also that seems to be the issue we run into or people overusing it. They're, it's almost like they're chasing something they're not going to get because again, like you said, it doesn't get you high. But I think.

31:28 People hear about kratom and they think, oh, I can get high from this because it works on the same receptors, but it doesn't do it the same way and you don't get high from it. And then in chasing that high, I think people run into issues where they're overusing and then they might run into a problem trying to stop. And that like, it's interesting to me that like there's that ceiling, the affinity piece with the way that it works on our receptors in our brain. And like the, you know, if you take too much, like you're not going to OD, you're just going to like maybe get nauseous, vomit, have terrible Constipation.

32:14 Like you're not going to be zoom in. You're not going to feel like you're not going to feel like you're on an oxy, Like you're not going to feel like you're on a transdermal fentanyl patch. You're not going to feel like you're on a compounded opioid. You're never going to get that that in your mind. And I think that that is the key. Like your body needs a certain amount of pain relief, but after a while you feel like your brain needs it too. And you have to really question those days, Am I taking this because I want to feel a different way in my mind? Or am I taking this because I am in pain? And it's always good to ask yourself that question. You know, I do think that kratom can be abused in extract or seven OH form, and I feel like it's bringing a lot of just bad vibes to like the whole kratom scene and it's going to mess it up for all of us.

33:24 And that stuff just needs to be off the market. It's terrible. And I don't want to see that around. But yeah, I've never felt the way that I used to feel on my medications. Psychologically, I've never had to pull off the side of the road because I'm on kratom. I did on my pain medication. That's a big difference, you know. That's a huge difference. There's even been a study done on driving while taking kratom that Doctor Kirsten Smith has done not too long ago. Yeah. Because I think people just, they hear about kratom, they don't quite understand it. And when they hear, oh, works on the same receptor as opioids, you can't drive.

34:08 You're going to stop breathing if you take like they just had. They're not gathering all the facts. It's incredibly frustrating. Yeah, It doesn't affect your respiratory rays. Like you can operate heavy machinery. I mean, I understand that it doesn't have that. Like, oh, well, the FDA says this and that, you know, and people want that. But for me, I've never had the if I can't drive, it's because my joints in my hand can't hold on to the wheel, not because my brain can't hold on to the wheel. And that's the difference between 17 years of opioid use and 10 years of kratom. Yeah, wow.

34:52 When you were first starting to take kratom, how did you figure out, like, where to buy it from? Because again, back when you started, there wasn't a lot of information available. So how did you figure out where to even buy it from? So my friend from Oregon would send me some to get me started and when I would go out there and visit, like he would take me to places that he knew I had it. And then I started to see it pop up where I live in Ohio around 2015. And then the distributor that I use opened in 2018 and I've been pretty loyal to them. They're local, good manufacturing practices like third party tested and excellent customer service. But yeah, it was a little tricky there at the beginning to source it like it was then.

35:49 I did what everybody does at the very beginning. I did head shop kratom and it did not work for me. It did not work as well as the product that I gotten out on the West Coast. And I realized that it was because it wasn't as pure. So that became like, I'm so careful about what I put in my body. I want to make sure that this product is as pure as possible, that this is, you know, as safe as possible. Absolutely. Your story is just so interesting. I'm just loving this conversation. You've been through a lot over the years with all of your medical stuff.

36:30 When you're consuming kratom and it's working really well, what does it bring your pain level down to? I usually wake up in a six level of pain and I will take my anti-inflammatory first thing in the morning. I'm still on that and that kind of tamps it down for a little bit and then I do somewhere around 3 hours after waking up to help with my morning stiffness and help me start to be able to function. I have to take a medication for brain pog I take or Modafinil for brain fog.

37:12 So I have to be careful to kind of stagger not taking any greens or why it's like so close to when my medication kicks in. So does that answer your question? Yeah, I'm just curious, like, does it just like reduce your pain level, like once you take your cranium, does it just bring your pain level down super low? You know, I, it's always interesting to me because some people will say that it works as good as when they took opioids for their pain relief, but then some people say it works way better than the opioids did. I feel like it works better. I really do. I feel like it brings my pain down to a tolerable level where I can do activities of daily living.

38:00 I can bathe myself, I can dress myself, I can stand for 1/2 hour. That's a big deal. Like I might not need my cane. I can hold on to the steering wheel. I can hold on to a pen like these are all things that I could not do because the pain would be so severe. I would be so stiff that my hands would not function. I couldn't turn on a faucet. I couldn't button my shirt. You know what I mean? So it's really helped give me that kind of autonomy back like, and I still have bad days. I still have bad days even with kratom but it it does bring it down to at least a four.

38:49 So I, you know, people always tell me when I meet them and talk about kratom that they don't really believe me at first until they get to know me because I will say my pain level goes to a zero. And I'm not making this up. When I was in pain management, taking opioids, a lot of opioids, not as much as you, but a lot for my, I have degenerative disc disease in both my neck and back and it's very, very severe. And even on a good day with my opioids, my pain level would be like a six or seven easily many times 8 or 9. Like I I was really suffering the pain that's helped, but I was still in a lot of pain. And when I discover Kratom and started taking it, it brings my pain level to a zero for about well, at first it took about maybe it go for like 3 hours, four hours overtime.

39:35 I've gotten all the way to six hours. So I can do this every six hours. And my back and neck hardly bothered me. Now, sometimes it'll bother me a little bit, but not like it was. But I seriously get down to a 0. Is that like crazy? Because I don't come across many people now that many people say that they say like what you say it brings it down to like a four or it definitely works better than the meds. But I've yet to come across somebody that says your pain levels is 0. And I, I speak my truth. I mean, people don't believe me. That's OK. But I seriously just feel amazing. I'm not suffering. I'm so grateful that you found a treatment that works for you because I know first hand how debilitating, degenerative, just diseases.

40:19 I don't have any discs of one through S1. They're all gone. And I have osteoporosis and that region of my spine now. And I can absolutely empathize with what that pain is like. And it's amazing that it brings you to us here and then amazing found you use mostly greens, right? Greens are what works for me. It took some trial and error to figure it out. But what I found over time was that if I take green and with some orange juice or pineapple juice or some kind of citrus juice, and that helps me too with the with the potentiating so it lasts longer. And I've been consuming kratom for almost six years every day. I've never not taken it.

41:04 I went completely from opioids because I got dropped from pain management through no fault of my own. But you know, doctors are scared. They don't want to prescribe. And I got dropped and so did a lot of other people. And we didn't do anything wrong. I followed all the rules. I never got in trouble. The doctor even told me once or twice that I was a model patient because I was still trying to work. I mean, I pushed through it as hard as it was being in pain all the time. I still, you know, if I could get on a computer or a laptop and be on the Internet, which you can do from anywhere, I could still try to do some work. And he was always impressed with me. So it was heartbreaking to lose access. So I had to find I like, I had no choice. I had to figure out something because I couldn't find another doctor to take over. When you're at high level opioids, doctors do not want to take over.

41:48 They do not there. No, they don't. And I could not. I live in a very large city. I could not find one doctor that would take over. And it was just ridiculous, you know? And I hear it's happening a lot more now. I mean, this was almost 6. This was six years ago when this happened. At the beginning of like when they were like, oh, there's a real opioid problem, like and I had quite a few friends that were dropped from their pain management doctors. I'm the only person that I know that fired. They're a pain management doctor. I'm hearing that more and more though now because people, what I'm finding, especially on TikTok, people are discovering me and other cranium consumers that use it for pain and they're like, wait a minute, there's an alternative. I want to research this.

42:34 And so some people are starting to tell me now that they've learned about kratom through me and they have fired their pain management doctor. How amazing. I mean, I don't really come across people like you that first fired your pain doctor and started using kratom because you don't hear it very often. But I think people are fed up with the healthcare system and all you hear about is people getting dropped or they're tapering them down against their will and, and forcing them to a lot less, which puts them in way more pain. And people are just looking for something else. And that's why I do all this. I do the podcast, I host the kratom Real Talk community. I do the kratom gals. I want people to know that there's an alternative. Because I spent nine years in pain management. I never heard of kratom.

43:19 I didn't hear about it until I got dropped from pain management and happened to see a documentary, A Leap of Faith. And it was definitely divine timing because it was right when I was running out of the meds and I don't know, my choice was to go to the streets. Like doctors don't understand what they're doing to healthcare. It's sad. It's sad, but your story, Nova is so amazing. I just really loving this conversation. The last question I have for you is knowing everything you know now about kratom, and you've been in this for a long time, a lot longer than me, what advice would you give someone to help them get started in their own journey? I actually read this down knowing what I know now. Take your time, research, get samples because a lot of vendors will give samples so you can try things outlook for discount codes because that's a thing keeping airtight containers. Rotate your stock regularly, rotate your strains, buy in bulk when there's a deal.

44:27 I think especially now what I've just heard with the tariffs and like the lowest supply coming out of Indonesia, I think it's important that we all kind of make sure that we have our medicine on hand. And then most of all, keep a pain journal and track your use every day and how you feel and physically. That's all great advice, Nova. I'm so glad we met in a TikTok live randomly recently and that you spent time coming over to Share your story with my community. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you for listeningyoucangetmoreinformation@kratomstoriespodcast.com including show notes from this episode.