Ep 80: From Pills to Plants: Diana’s Path to Wellness with Kratom

0:00 I was taking, like, lots of acetaminophen, So that wasn't working. And I was really in a desperate situation. And I had walked past a comma bar a few times that was in our neighborhood. And I'd heard rumors about this tea. It was still very secretive. You know, it was one of those, like, if, you know, you know, kind of a thing. So I was like, let me see what this is all about. So I ordered one of their hot teas and I only drank half of it. So I didn't really notice like a huge difference the first time, but I I noticed I felt like I could sleep peacefully, like I could actually really sleep for the first time in a long time. So I went back and I got another tea and then that was what pretty much turned my whole life around as far as like how I viewed plant medicine.

1:04 So I'm here with Diana, somebody I met online, and I'm always looking for interesting stories to share on this podcast. So Diana, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm really looking forward to learning more about you. So tell us a bit about yourself and life before kratom. Oh OK, life before first. First of all, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. I'm a big fan of yours and it, it warms my heart to see so many stories on a daily basis. It's really, it's truly refreshing. So before kratom, I was a chronic pain patient. I have Crohn's disease and endometriosis, carpal tunnel, chronic migraines, anxiety disorder, you name it. I'm kidding, not you name it, but it, it was a lot of things. So I was taking a lot of pills and I'm sure you've heard this story so many times, but you know, I was taking pills to counteract the consequences of the pills I was taking. It was, you know, side effects, I should say, like, oh, this one isn't working or this, this is making you too tired. Take some Adderall to counteract that. I, I wasn't on Adderall for very long at all. Like I only took that for a very short bit, but I had a Doctor Who would write me a prescription for anything, you know, that was, she just would write me like every trip, every visit, I should say it was a, a

2:36 new handful of prescriptions. So anyway, I was living in Maryland at the time that that was happening. And this was pretty much in the beginning of the opioid crisis. And we moved to Florida for a little bit just to kind of get change of pace, you know, like, I was still young. And I thought, like, oh, it was a fun vacation spot. It'd be a fun place to live. And it was for a while. But it was also a completely different story down there, comparatively speaking, because Maryland hadn't been really hit yet. The doctors, when we left, the doctors were still refilling prescriptions.

3:17 You know, they would make you come in more frequently and and they were becoming stricter about who they were, you know, prescribing to. But it wasn't like it was in Florida or South Florida where we were specifically where there was a rehab on every corner. Like we had more rehab centers than we had McDonald's in like a 7 mile radius. So that is all to say that I went from having a Doctor Who was quick to write a script to doctors that were like, why are you taking all of these medications like and treating me like I was drug seeking. So all of a sudden one day, the doctor that I had found that would allow me to stay on like the minimum, the, the, the, the most minimum dose, I should say, of pain medication. And I was also taking Xanax for my anxiety. She said we're not, we're not prescribing controlled substances anymore because there's been a crackdown from the DEA and we don't feel comfortable. We had a patient who abused, you know, abused the prescriptions of basically she just said we're not doing this anymore. She didn't give me any kind of plan for titration, weaning off of anything.

4:34 It was just like, that's it. So I was panicking and I went to Walgreens, CVS, all the places, and I got everything over the counter I could think of, you know, valerian roots. I was taking like lots of acetaminophen. So that wasn't working. And I was really in a desperate situation. And I had walked past a comma bar a few times that was in our neighborhood. And I'd heard rumors about this tea. It was still very secretive. You know, it was one of those like if you know, you know, kind of a thing. So I was like, let me see what this is all about.

5:14 So I ordered one of their hot teas and I only drank half of it. So I didn't really notice like a huge difference the first time, But I, I noticed, I felt like I could sleep peacefully, like I could actually really sleep for the first time in a long time. So I went back and I got another tea and then that was what pretty much turned my whole life around as far as like how I viewed plant medicine. And ever since then I have only had to take like right now I'm on a prescription for my blood pressure. But comparatively speaking, I'm I'm on practically nothing from what I was on before pharmaceutically.

5:58 I take all plant medicine now as much as possible and have been for over a decade. So that was a nice. Wow, how many medications were you on? You know, prior to the Pava bar. Well, if I was on all of the ones that she wanted me to be on, it would have been like a dozen. But I didn't fill all of the prescriptions because it was getting to the point. Like, I was so dazed and confused. You know, I tell people all the time I was much higher when I was taking legal drugs than I ever was with cannabis or, you know, anything that is was illegal in South Florida at the time. And I know Kratom's not illegal, but it's definitely a hot button topic.

6:41 You know, some places it is right, unfortunately, and, and at the time it was like still being in Florida especially there were a lot of attempts at the end. So, but when I was taking the pain medications, I was taking like a very low dose of like a Percocet or I would take like Vicoprofen, like the Vicodin and ibuprofen. And then I had a very low dose of opioid. It was just like oxycodone. Oxycodone, I think it was, yeah, like 5 milligrams. But then for my anxiety, it was like always some she was always giving me additional things for that, like Xanax. She kept increasing the dosage and the more it increased, the worse my anxiety got.

7:33 And that was the thing I realized from kratom was that or kratom is that it really helped with my anxiety as well, in addition to the pain relief. So I didn't have to take that anymore. I mean, I still supplement with a lot of other types of plant medicine, but I feel like they go hand in hand, You know, they they work very well with creative so. That's what so many people say. I've interviewed so many people for this podcast and I hear these same kind of stories echoed in and almost all of them is, you know, they started kratom for their pain issues or to help curb addiction to to St. drugs.

8:14 But in the process, it's like this really helps my anxiety. I don't even need my meds for that anymore. Like people weren't expecting these other very positive side effects, which is just phenomenal. It says so much about whole leaf kratom powder. Right, 100%. And I think also a lot of the medicines I was taking for my Crohn's disease, like I, I don't even know what you would call them, but they made my life so much worse, you know, and I think when I realized how to take kratom correctly, responsibly, I realized it did help with a lot of my gut issues as well. If I took it the right way, you know, and not on an empty stomach, it also helped because I used to have a lot of ulcers, and now they're pretty much all gone.

9:04 So I have incredible any. Like, the drugs they wanted me to be on were the kind that I couldn't leave town without telling my doctor about it because my white blood cell count could go so low that it could. Yeah, that kind of a thing. Wow. That's why, you know, it's interesting how many people I've talked to that suffer from Crohn's have had all kinds of issues with Crohn's. And then with kratom, they're like, it's, it's like I don't have Crohn's anymore. That just seems to be a really common one that helps is is with people with Crohn's. Yeah, it really does. I mean, a lot of people I know who aren't on any type of plant medicine, who manage their Crohn's with pharmaceuticals, they don't have the type of freedom I feel I have now.

9:48 Like I said, I don't. I don't feel like I'm tied to the doctor's office anymore and that can kind of piss off some of the GI doctors. I'll tell you, they don't really like to consider kratom when it comes to a treatment, which is wild to me because I, I don't understand being in that type of service, you know, that kind of type of industry and not wanting to know what is making my patients so much better. Right, right. So so your your GI doctor is not on board with kratom? None of, I mean, right now I I'm about to see a new one. But in Florida, no, definitely not. They wouldn't even write it on as what I was taking. They put it under illicit drugs, which was like it. It's not even illegal.

10:35 It's not, Yeah. That's crazy. So it's federally legal. It's not banned in Florida so that's crazy. But there was also a lot of propaganda going around at the time. And I know right now we're back into that kind of swing of things, but especially back then, there wasn't, there weren't as many people willing to be public advocates as there are. Right. I, you know, the public, people become public advocating when there's when it's under threat. And Florida was under threat earlier this year. It was scary how close it got to be in ban the the entire plant, kratom plant being banned and on my kratom gals live stream, you know, we we monitor and watch a lot of different hearings around the country with these ban bills. And I clearly remember the Florida ones. We watched some of those hearings and those Florida legislators, they were so anti kratom and the way they went. But the kratom community came out to speak. I mean, there were so many people there, lots of Kava bar owners, lots of kratom vendors and manufacturers and tons of consumers turned advocates.

11:44 And the legislators were like, so like glaring at them and trying to make everybody hurry up. Like, like, he didn't want his time wasted because it was obviously it already made-up their mind that they wanted it banned. But luckily, the ban did not go through. It didn't happen. It was very close, though. And it's really important for all kratom consumers to be very aware that these exist around the country. And I always suggest people get on the e-mail list with the American KREM Association, go to protectkratom.org. I'll put the link in the show notes here, but I was lucky and discovered the AKA early on in my kratom journey. And I, you know, I signed up for their newsletter and it's like I couldn't believe how often these emails would go out about, oh, this state might want to is trying to ban it and go fill out this form and share your testimony. I'm like, but I don't live there. It's like it was OK, like this is good to know. Like, you know, it's like I kind of turned into an advocate without really trying to, but it's just all about awareness. And if people aren't aware that these things happen, but also is a reminder too.

12:54 I feel so bad for all the people in Louisiana because I guarantee you right now with their ban that went into effect August 1st, there are people right now that have plenty of kratom. They bought, you know, they buy it, they're good for a while, have no idea that it became banned, fed like banned in the whole state, all of it, including the powder. And they're going to like go to their smoke shop or they're going to go order online and it's going to be sorry, we can't sell it to you. And they're going to be like, what? But it's but not everybody knows that these things go on and it's so sad. Well, to that .1 of the reasons I can tell you for sure, because I was reporting on it at the time that these politicians don't want kratom to be legal is because a lot of them were getting paid by the companies that tested the urinalysis or that did the urinalysis for a lot of these rehabs.

13:43 And at the time when we were living there, I I had a lot of friends who were in these programs and they would put a ban on kratom if you were a patient there, But then they would also hire people to basically try to get you back on kratom like or other drugs, other things, other substances in order for you to go back. Like I found there was a whole ring basically going on where it was like the people that owned the rehabs and not all of them obviously, but there was quite a few where people were basically these owners of these rehabs are setting up people for failure so that they could keep getting the urinalysis is done and you know, it was and have them coming back because they were making so much money.

14:32 I mean, the governor at the time, his wife owned a urinalysis company or she had ownership in it, I should say. That's just wrong on so many levels. You. Know yeah, yeah. And so, I mean, it's like it sounds, I'm sure a little conspiracy theorist theorist, but it's, it's true. It's because kratom threatens the Pharmaceutical industry. So. Hardcore, but also the people. That are in it for nefarious reasons. It threatens them the most, you know. Oh God, that's crazy stuff you uncovered. But, but none of it ever surprises me anymore. All these years of advocating, it's like, it's like, I don't like there'll be some crazy thing.

15:16 It's like, well, nothing's going to top that. Like with the Florida thing, I'm like, you know, everybody was supposed to get like 3 minutes to come talk. Then the guy changed it to two minutes and then it was like 30 seconds. And it's like, and the, and the way he cleared, I'm like, I thought, I think I've seen it all. Like this is the worst I've ever seen. You know of something. And then Texas, where I live, they tried doing a ban, a statewide ban. And the senator that brought the bill to the floor says on record at the beginning, well, I think Ukrainian powder is fine, but we're just going to ban it all because we want it all gone. All of except because they're really pushing the 708 that they wanted to ban. But he says we know the powder is fine. I don't remember his exact words, but basically he's saying he knows Powder is fine, but let's just ban it all.

16:02 And it's like, Oh my God, I thought Florida was bad. What the heck is this? Like, yeah, it powder's fine, but we're banning it. We we want it gone. I think that the war on drugs has never really ended. And I think it's kind of like been rebooted in the last few years. And I think that kratom is definitely one of the biggest targets for that. Unfortunately, even though it's not a drug, it's a plant. But again, it threatens so many industries. And you know, once you follow the money, you can see where where the real inspiration is. And also it's an easy way to campaign off of something right, like the, the fear mongering headlines, because that's what I saw in Florida, the one senator who really, really rallied against kratom without knowing anything about it. And she, she had a lot of constituents write in and tell her these stories about how it saved their lives. And, you know, there was there was evidence that this person's death that she was using as like her, you know, her launch against kratom.

17:07 It wasn't just kratom in his system as per usual. And it wasn't whole leaf kratom that was in his system. So, you know, but she didn't want to tell the whole story because it was a lot easier to run on that fear mongering campaign. And it worked for her. So unfortunately, I think that those are two things that really work against us as advocates. And especially when there are so many headlines. Like the first time I ever wrote about kratom, it was for Dame magazine, and it's a feminist independent journal. And so I felt really comfortable telling the truth through them, but they still made me include certain things I didn't want to because at the time, there was really no research to prove otherwise.

17:54 And even now, as you know, the research is so limited. But the headline she chose to use really upset a lot of kratom advocates, even the ones I had interviewed for the piece, because it was something like, is Kratom a life saving drug? Or is it is it a hallucinogenic? Like it was something like that. Like it was a question like is it dangerous or is it safe essentially? But it was the way they worded it that made people very upset. And I was like, just read the article please. But so many people just go off of the headline. They don't they don't want to see any more. And that works kind of negatively on both sides of the fence, right?

18:36 Like the people that are pro and anti. So yeah. Yeah, so I mean, sadly, we're in a world where it's like the click bait thing, you know, the the people that publish stuff like that, they want, they want the clicks. And you got to have a headline that attracts attention. And it's almost always something super negative because what why would people want to click and go read it when it's something positive and good? You know, they want to hear that scary thing that gets them to push the button. And it's, it's a real shame because Kratom has helped millions of people and it's such a great thing, a great tool for us to have in our toolbox when we suffer from chronic pain and don't want to take opiates anymore or we can't get access to them anymore.

19:19 And then for other ailments. And then just some people just like that instead of their morning coffee, they just prefer a cup of kratom tea and get that nice energy boost. It's like, you know, we're all grown adults, let's have access to a plant. It's not a big deal, right? This, this whole conversation is so fascinating, Dana. I'm really loving it. Let's go back a bit to when you first found, discovered kratom. So when all this was happening in your life and with the meds and stuff with the doctor, what, what year was that? Like? How long ago was all that? I want to say that it was about 2009. It's been over a decade.

20:00 It was a little bit like 2009, 2010. I'd say so. So there wasn't much information about kratom back then. So like, so really you said you saw the Kava bar. There were Kava bars back then that far back. Yes and and so it actually became like my whole like a lot of my life, like it was professional and personal. So I, I know I'm supposed to be sharing my personal story with it, but it all kind of melded together because we found this Kaaba bar. And then it was such a great sense of community. And especially back then because like I said, you know, kratom wasn't really discussed, but Kaaba was, was also not discussed. You know, people are like, what are you? What is this place?

20:41 And so we became like really involved in that community very quickly. And my husband actually became a manager of the bar. And then I, being a writer, decided I was going to start dedicating my my writing practice to writing about kratom as much as possible. But like I said before, it really changed my whole way of thinking about all plant medicine. So I started writing about cannabis as well because it wasn't legal in Florida yet. While still not completely legal in Florida, but they were voting for a medical program. So that became my focus and I quickly launched a cannabis podcast. And I found the odd thing I found when I when I started this podcast was that people who were in the cannabis space had very hot takes on kratom, even though they had no idea what they were talking about.

21:38 And I realized that kratom was actually more controversial than cannabis. It's like, why? That's so bizarre. Yeah, that's wow. But I was able to get. My family members to try it, you know, I was able to get friends like on a personal level, I was just like anybody who would listen to me, you know, tell them about how much it could change your life. And so, you know, I still do that, but but it was much more difficult back then. There were like secret Facebook groups you mentioned, AKA earlier. I was, I was totally involved in what they were doing in the very early days when there was just like a few people.

22:23 So, you know, I, I, I got really excited It, it changed the way I viewed activism as well. So yeah, I'm not sure what I was answering there, but if I answered anything. This is just so interesting because you know, you started using kratom way back before most people had ever heard of it. I, I'm sure there was very little information online, AKA, you know, you were part of that movement very early on. So that was all before the big national ban threat in 2016 And, and we always love hearing about that because so many of us didn't even discover kratom until after that. So what was what we tell us about that era? Because we've heard people say it was a very scary time. It happened really fast.

23:10 Everybody freaked out and very quickly people spoke up and spoke out. Absolutely. And during that time, I, I was like trying to tell as many people as I could, but I also realized that I needed to start like including that on the podcast, even though we were talking about cannabis, I'm like, we need to talk about. Like, it freaked me out because I always kind of thought I would still have access to it as long as I lived in certain states, you know, And then I realized places like Vermont were banning it. And I'm just like, this is terrifying. I'm still terrified, you know, I still am terrified that it could happen and in the near future because I don't know what I would do, honestly.

23:55 And, and so I, I, I've tried to write my story in, in as many ways as I possibly can. Unfortunately, some of the publications have gone out of business or gone, you know, become defunct. So I have to go in the Wayback Machine to, to capture some of it and some of it's just gone, unfortunately. But I had people reach out to me and like, how do I do more about this? You know, and obviously there's no perfect advocacy. You know, I, I think that we saying AKA like I support what they're doing, but I'm not saying that I'm like 100% AKA is the only option. You know, there, there are people like you, you know, people like Christopher, there are so many people now that are speaking out.

24:44 And so I tried to call attention to that as much as I can. Yeah, which is important. Yeah, it's scary. It is scary. It's scary that like the government can just decide at any time, like let's just make this so nobody can have access and, and you know the whole 70 H thing and we can definitely talk a little bit about 70 H to see what your thoughts are. You know, all of a sudden out of nowhere, the FDA comes out recently and they're like we're banning 70 H products affect. I mean, well, they're requesting the DE, the DEA has to be the one to do it, but they're requesting the DEA do it and we haven't heard nothing from the DEA. And while I do not consume 70 H, I've had no need to because because kratom holy powder works amazing for my chronic pain and I get enough relief from it that I don't need a stronger. I don't need, you know, to necessarily be using the extractor 70 H.

25:38 And I have heard from a lot of people that took 70 without knowing what it was got addicted. There's a lot of really sad stories of that smoke shops giving away free samples and really pushing it on people and people that were not suspecting of what it was. But then there's also a whole group of people in the pain community that have been abandoned. And I understand that well because I was abandoned by pain management and they found 70 H and they didn't have to go to the streets and they're using it responsibly. They're not using a crazy amount. And all of them said, I've researched it, I understand what I'm taking and I get it and I'm but now they're being demonized.

26:19 And so it's just interesting how the 70 H and Kramer community is so divided. I just don't like how those 70 H manufacturers have been doing things very shady, calling these these products different drug names, which is just wrong. Having it in convenience stores, that's wrong. You know, they're doing so many things that there's no surprise that the government wants to ban it. But if they make it a schedule one, then you can't research it and that's not right either. So it's just we're in a crazy time right now with the whole 7 OH thing. I'm just trying to educate people. I just put out lots of videos of like here's whole leaf Creighton powder. Here's what 7 OH is they're two very different things. Educate yourself and understand.

27:00 But what's your take on that right now with what's going on? I mean, I think you just hit the nail on the head with education. I think that the fact that people like you and I try very hard to educate, I mean, you're doing a lot more than I am with creation education right now. But, but basically with all of these restrictions that we face on social media and all these other weird things that we come across like with our newsletters and our e-mail addresses being blocked and things like that. It, I know it's by design, but it makes it so much more difficult for people to be informed about what they're purchasing. I come from everything with a harm reductive standpoint. Like I look at it through a harm reduction lens. So like you said, if someone, if they're desperate and that is a safer option for them, then it should be available to them. But more importantly, the education needs to be available to them.

27:58 And that education is so stunted because we have all these fear mongering, misinformed articles, underreported pieces floating around. People are reacting to the reactions on social media instead of finding out what they're reacting to. And I mean, they're coming up with these completely unhinged theories. I responded to 1 the other day where someone was talking about them the something about 911 and kratom being on a on the plane. I'm like what? Is. What I mean, it's going so and it's like, how do you even find a, a meeting place with that type of it's not even logic.

28:45 It's just complete bonkers bananas like delusion, you know, and it's like, the reality is you see people like me who come from a family of, of substance use disorders and addictive personalities who can say I've been doing this for over a decade now. You know, I, I stopped taking it the entire length of my pregnancy without an issue and even a little bit after that. So like for the better part of a year, I didn't even use it and I was fine, you know, and before this, I was counting the hours, the minutes, just to have worse pain. I don't have rebound pain with Kratom like I did with pharmaceuticals, you know, and I don't get treated like like I'm seeking something that I shouldn't be seeking when all I'm seeking is relief by a medical professional. I mean, they might not take it seriously, but at least they're not treating me like I'm trying to, you know, get one over on them either anymore.

29:51 So seeing these examples, if that's not enough for you, then like, I don't know what else can be enough for you to understand that this is completely safe if you use it in a Safeway. But, and like I said, the lack of education times, our shortened attention spans, you know, equals where we're at right now, You know, unfortunately. You say it so perfectly though. If it's if you're using it safe, it's safe to use. Like, you know, It has so much to do with being a responsible consumer and understanding what you're consuming, but also the fact that you stopped for over a year during your pregnancy and the time after and you had no issues. Because so many people say, oh, kratom gave me the worst, worst withdrawals than getting off of fentanyl or heroin. And it's like, well, a lot of people say they had no issues getting off of it.

30:53 Yeah. Plus, people don't understand. I'm generalizing, but a lot of people misunderstand the difference between addiction and physical dependence. They're two separate things. If your body is physically depending dependent on pain relief and it's become used to pain relief, you're going to have some type of symptoms if you just automatically stop that train, you know? And you can become addicted to anything like. Yes, there's there's so many things we buy that don't require a prescription. We can have a dependent dependency to an addiction to caffeine is such a great example. And I know the anti kratin people hate when we use caffeine because they just they can't believe it's true. OK, so I'm not a coffee drinker, so like I don't ever get caffeine that way.

31:44 But I tell you what I like this caffeine is a neuro gum. That neuro gum is amazing. It has natural caffeine in it. It has Alfini in it. You know that's been like huge on TikTok like about a year ago. You saw this neuro gum everywhere. So so one of my kratom advocate friends had made a video about it a while back and she said this really, you know, like I saw the hype. Let me try for myself. She said this is great tasting gum and it really is good, like a good caffeine boost in a clean way. I'm like, that sounds appealing to me. And I love my neuro gum. I chew it all the time. I don't overdo it. I research, I understand what I'm consuming. I love it has Elfini in it and there are some days where it's like I wake up and I go, I really need that neuro gum.

32:29 So I cut so I feel like I have a little tiny addiction to it. Not bad. It's not clouding my judgement, but it's like I'm I'm telling myself, I know I'll feel better if I go chew piece my piece of gum when I first get up because I'm a little sluggish and it does it. But how is that different from the person that wakes up sluggish and says I need my cup of coffee? It's it's the same thing. And of course I'm going to have dependency. We get dependency to caffeine when I do stop caffeine, whether it's been with sodas or with my gum. Yeah, mine. Is main even like I'm going to? Do it. Yeah, mine. 'S main mushrooms like I didn't I, I take that as often as I can and I didn't realize that it could cause you to have a headache if you didn't take it If you take it every day and then you don't take it a day, you can get a headache from it. So, you know, there's things like when you do a little bit of research and you find out like, oh, that's why that's happening. You know, instead of just being like, oh, it's bad. I'm not taking it anymore.

33:28 Like, no, it does provide, provide all these benefits. It just you need to also be aware that these are the side effects. I mean, there's side effects to everything. Exactly, and it doesn't mean it's a bad thing to demonize. So why is it that nobody is demonizing the caffeine and coffee or in neurogum but they're demonizing a plant called kratom? It makes these people just don't make sense with their logic on this. And not to say some people don't have bad issues when they stop, you know, but but like you said, lion's mean, you see, I've been using lion's mane powder for quite a while. I didn't know if I stopped taking it that I could potentially have something like that. I have taken breaks where I've where I've stopped and I had no issues.

34:12 I didn't, I didn't get any headaches. But every, our bodies are all different and we're going to all react to things differently. I think the bottom line is people need to educate themselves. And so many times when people talk about an addiction to 70 H or you, and I remember just a few years ago it was an addiction to kratom extracts, right? We don't hear about that anymore because now it's just a 70 H. But almost always with the people that complain of this, it's like they almost always say, well, I didn't even know what I was taking. I'm like, well, why didn't you research to see? Even when I go to the doctor and they want to prescribe a new prescription, I'll go get that filled, but before I put it in my body, I'm going to still go and do my research. I'm going to go see, does this interact with anything else I take?

34:57 That's me being a grown adult doing an adult thing. But people are like, oh, the doctor gave me this. I'm just going to pop it because they said to. It's like, OK, but you know, it doesn't hurt to research and understand. Like that I got him into Kava and kratom, but he wouldn't even, I'm like, you can't drink alcohol and drink Hob at the same time. Oh, I'll be fine. Whatever, you know. And he's just the type that'll take whatever you have. Like he doesn't. And if you say, oh, it's like 2, you're supposed to take two. He'll grab a handful and take them like no. And he's much older than I am and he still does it. I, I don't know why, but it's, this is how he rolls. And I'm like, OK, I mean, whatever, you're still alive. So that's good.

35:44 But I'm. Oh, wow. Well, you know, everybody's their own person and they, you know, when we're talking about adults, you know, we have the rights to, to, to do things and is, is ridiculous when the government wants to put that kind of control on like what can go in your body. But then again, for those of us that, you know, were in pain management years ago, they, they were always putting restrictions. The government was always restricting the amount of opiates the doctors could prescribe. Insurance company dictating what medications you can take that they'll cover. I mean, I went through lots of that where they're telling the doctor, no, you can't prescribe this, that you're the doctor and you're the expert.

36:24 But we know you gotta give her this other medication instead. He's like, but this doesn't work on her. Too bad. We're only paying for this one. So give this this one I it boggles my I mean, that'd be like a whole another podcast. I guess we should do sometime because it's like. Humanizing now you know I. Don't understand that politicians and and healthcare companies that no healthcare executives, that none of these are medical professionals, none of them. I mean, maybe a few politicians, but you know, their judgement is always out the window. I that's what I always see is why can't it always be what's in the best interest of the person? And the doctors are, are doctors are getting worse, though. I mean, it's, it's turned into a whole corporate thing again. That'd be like a whole another podcast.

37:05 But it's just we're in such a crazy time, you know, with politicians and insurance companies dictating our, our health and well-being. Oh absolutely. I think that the people that don't really want to understand kratom are people that don't have to because they don't have to go to the doctor every other week or every week. They don't have to be, you know, put through that whole thing where you just, we just spoke of where you have to fill out all this extra paperwork or the dehumanizing experience of having your doctor just like look right through you and not really hear what you're saying. And those people are very lucky, but I don't understand why they don't want the access for the people in their lives who need it.

37:52 And two, won't even open up their minds to like see why and just have a very short conversation, just a little, like let's just have a back and forth. And you understand this a little. You don't have to know everything about it. You know, a lot of people tell me when I try to, you know, the people that are like hesitant to understand it, they are like, why do you care if you don't get high off of it? Like they, they don't understand being this passionate about something that you don't get high off of. And I don't understand that mentality because it's like you just want to be living your life every day and have the highest quality of life. You're not trying to be high, you know, you just want to have the highest quality you you can be and and that's not enough. Wow.

38:40 And then I mean, it's kind of hooky to say, well, I'm high on life. I mean, that's like, I mean, but that's really what it is. I mean, my all this advocacy, all this stuff and educate is because I'm high on life, even though it's not really the way I, I describe it because it is hokey, but it, it is, that's what it is. I mean, I think people can best understand saying it like that. Like I'm my best self because I'm using a plant for my well-being. Whereas before it was taking high doses of narcotics. Now, I was one of those where the narcotics didn't knock me out, didn't they? If I didn't tell you, you would have no idea that I've been all day. Oxycontin, Percocet, like you know, you wouldn't know because it didn't affect me in any kind of negative way where you could tell by looking at me.

39:22 It didn't get me high or anything, but I still wasn't my best self because I wasn't getting enough pain relief even with those narcotics and with kratom, I do, I get the most amazing pain relief. And it's like, why? Why would people not be happy to see a fellow human doing better in their life because of a plant? Like what? Why can't that be applauded? So it's just, and I think that just goes back to why people like you and I advocate and we educate because we're just trying to help people understand. Yeah. And I think having autonomy over your health is, it's like best feeling ever, you know? It's everything. It's everything it. Really is. Yeah, I'm loving, like we're having such a great discussion. I love this.

40:06 But back to your journey using kratom, let's go back to when you know you're using it, you first discover and it's amazing. And like, how was that impacting like your overall day-to-day life, your well-being? Well, before that, I spent a lot of time in the hospital, to be honest, because like we just discussed, you know, a lot of the pharmaceuticals I was taking made things worse, a lot worse. And, you know, not I, I don't remember all the names of them because they're all like very long names. And I didn't really pay that much attention because before kratom, I did trust my doctors.

40:49 Even though I was being treated the way I was being treated, I still felt like they knew more than I did, you know, So if they're going to prescribe, this is probably for a good reason. But I would wind up in the hospital a lot because I had a lot of Crohn's flare ups happening and I wasn't able to work. I at the time was a, I, I told you I was a writer, but I was also a hair stylist because you can't make a living just being a writer alone. So anyway, so I, I wasn't able to, to really do well in that because it was so physical, you know, and that was causing me trouble at work. I was being threatened quite a bit, even though it was out of my control.

41:38 So I, I didn't have any autonomy. I was completely just a mess really. And I kind of thought that was just going to be my life until, until kratom. And you know, it's trial and error with any plant medicine. So I'm not saying like I completely figured it out right off the bat. I didn't really understand extracts at the time, so I don't even think they were calling them extracts, to be honest with you. They just like, oh, this is a much stronger version of the kratom. I go, OK, I'll try that. But once I became more aware of that and educated myself and it really taught me to listen to my own body in a way that nothing else really aside from pregnancy. It it really taught me to start like, you know, cluing into what my body was saying to me.

42:31 And so that really just changed my whole life. I I said professionally and personally, and that's not an overstatement. It really completely changed my life. So yeah, I'm trying to think of other ways it did, but those are like the pretty the major ways I could think of. It's great that, you know, this plant was just able to help you so much and especially with those flare ups with Crohn's, I mean, I've heard lots of stories of like, yeah, how do you get to be hospitalized? And I so with kratom, you that that stopped. You didn't have to go through that anymore. I mean, I, I would still have nausea, which is when I started using cannabis more intentionally to kind of combat that. But I also now understand that I was using it on an empty stomach.

43:17 That didn't help. And also I was probably using too much at certain times as well and I didn't realize it and I so I would titrate down. So, you know, I started off with just the tea and then I found out about the powder. So I started taking the capsules and now I just mix like a couple of tablespoons in a Gatorade or a Powerade couple of times a day and that's and I so I drink it all day and that works for me. That's cool. I was about to ask you like what's your routine like these days? So, and let me ask you this, because many times when people are new to kratom and they have like Crohn's or some kind of GI thing that they're like, but I don't know if I should be consuming this powder. Like that's probably not good for my gut. I mean, you're a long time consumer, you know a lot. So what how do you address that when people say that? Because I usually don't know what to tell them with that. Well, I mean, I, I would also like want to know what else they're taking and, and you know, because I think I use, you know, probiotics as much as possible. So it's not just the kratom, you know, like I said, I use cannabis that helps a lot, but.

44:33 I think it's more people concerned of like I have gut issues. Should I be well, should I be consuming a powder that you know, that is that going to not be good for my gut when I've got gut issues? I think the concern is, I don't know if I should be drinking then, you know, making this tea and drinking it because it's a powder, you know, and, and maybe I'd be better with an extract, But you know, I, I haven't had those kind of GI issues. So but but plenty of people I know with Crohn's and other GI issues say they they make a kratom tea and they're fine. Oh yeah, kratom tea. I still drink kratom tea as well because coincidentally my husband's working in the Kava bar again in Maryland. And so they make kratom tea that they just make it with the whole leaf powder or the crushed leaf.

45:21 Sorry. And so, you know, when he's, when he comes home with one, I drink one. Yeah, No, I don't have any issues with it. Like I said, the only thing was nausea, but it's one of those things where it's like it could be so many things causing me nausea, you know, because endometriosis as well like that, it's hard to pin it down if it is creative related or if it's something else. Right, exactly. I usually tell somebody like you can try it with the mixing the powder, making the tea of it and then try it when you strain it, you know, so that there's no powder that you know, you, you take out the plant matter to see like what works best for you. But it's such a trial and error for everyone like you.

46:03 And you said earlier that you went through trial and error. So what? Because when I first discovered Kratom and I'm trying it, it didn't do much for me at first. But also because I suffer from chronic pain, everybody was saying you want red, you want red, red for pain. I'm OK because I don't know any better. And apparently Reds don't work on me. They don't really do much for me. And I was using capsules because everybody said how bitter and nasty it tasted and I was being a wuss. So I'm like, well, I'm going to do capsule. Why would I want to taste it if I could just have a capsule version? And so I was doing like red capsules in the beginning. I'm like, why are all these capsules making me feel bloated and nauseous? Because you know, you have to take, you know, so many of them because it's just the leaf powder, raw leaf powder.

46:44 And but it was the Reds, Russ just didn't work on me. It was the greens, which, you know, of course, I went from red to been trying white and white was like, Nope, too jittery. So it was a while before I tried the green. But I noticed a huge difference when I opened up the capsules to just do the powder direct because a lot of people say, you know, the powder is the magic, you know? If you do the capsules, it might not work as well. I do, yeah. I like the Blade Papes and I wish those had been around when I first started because that was like a game changer. And I didn't even try them until just a few years ago. And I'm like, what a cool way for people that don't know, and I'll link to it in the show knows. So it's the best way to describe it. It's almost looks like a little cellophane thing, but it's not cellophane.

47:28 It's made out of potato starch, but they call it like a little gel thing. But I buy the one that's in the shape of a pouch. So it's kind of like it just looks like a tornado, right? And so it's, it's a pouch. So you can just pour your crayon powder in or any supplement, any supplement that you don't want to taste, you can. I've done turmeric in there because turmeric tastes nasty to me. You put your crayon powder in and then you just kind of and you don't over pack it. That's the key. Don't over pack. And you got fingers got to be dry because if your fingers get wet, then when you're handling it, it'll all stick and mess up. So you just kind of fold it over and then you just have this little pouch of kratom, you dip it in some water and it starts to gel up a little bit and then you just swallow it. And the first time I did this, honestly, Diana, I was terrified because I'm thinking, how am I supposed to be able to swallow this thing's kind of big, you know, because I was able to easily fit like a tea one teaspoon.

48:17 I normally take 2 teaspoons of, of kratom powder and make my swamp water tea, but I, I could fit one teaspoon pretty well. So I'm like, oh gosh, I got to take two of these and I thought I better record myself because I'm sure this is all going to be great. No big deal. I'm psyching myself out was the problem. I need to record this because I'm sure this is so easy to do and it could help other people. So I just remember like holding going. I'm scared, but I just did it. And the key is to just do a fat If you overthink, you'll mess up. And and it was like, Oh my God, that was so not a big deal. So I made a 7 minute video that's on my kratom. Real talk, it's my private online community for whole leaf powdered kratom consumers, walking you through step by step how to do this, how to put it together, how to do it. You know, I have the whole because I can't post it on social media that, you know, we're so highly censored. You know, you show kratom on screen. Oh my God, TikTok, they don't like that and and neither does some of the other platforms.

49:13 So I'm like, I got to have a place where I can help people get, you know, that kind of information and just it's just we all learn from each other. So many people heard about Blade Papes from me and then, but I learned about it from other creative consumers. Well, I learned about it from you and I'm ordering my husband some because he does the toss and watch. I can't because I had too much of A gag reflex. I. I can't do toss a bunch. There's no way When I when I first discovered kratom and I I'm like, well, how do you even take this? And people were talking about toss and watch. So I googled it and I found a YouTube video. I'm watching it going there's no way I'm doing that. Yeah, I will find it. There's got to be another way to consume kratom, but I'm not going to just put that on my mat in my mouth and then go guzzle it down with that Just looked gross the way they were doing it, you know, like dry powder on your tongue.

49:58 I don't think so. No, I think I've taken it almost every way that I can think of. I've even had kratom brownies which were disgusting. Interesting. It doesn't seem to bake. Well, bake or cook it doesn't work. It's not like. I don't like the gummies I I've yet to have one that actually tasted good. So I found one that tastes good from my my friends at Exp Botanicals, like theirs is good, but but most that I've tried just is is it's either the flavor doesn't taste good that they flavored it with or you get a bad after taste. And this one that I've been trying is, is the apple Peach flavor. And it's really good. Surprisingly, I really like the taste of it like and I do extract EXPII.

50:44 Yeah, I have it linked on my website. I have a a vendors page on my website is called new. It's New Wave Botanicals is the website and the, the letters EX P/E XP that they're gummies and you can get it through there. Yeah, I'm super impressed with. That's like the only one that actually tastes good. So it's, it's, but, you know, just, I feel like with kratom, there's so much trial and error of everything. You got to find what works for you. You got to find a good brand. That's why I have my vendors page because I've done a lot of research and it's, you know, just helping people not have to work so hard to find the information. Because when you started back in 2009, I can't imagine there'd be much stuff. I didn't start to 2019.

51:26 That's ten years after you. And even back then I wasn't that much. I was buying it from like people on Facebook. My uncle had some kind of Indonesian connection, which probably wasn't legal. And I was, you know, yeah, it's definitely sketchy. And I definitely have had some products. I was like, woof, Nope, that's that's not good. So yes, I have tried a lot of different kinds and I've purchased it in some pretty sketchy ways in the past. So now I'm so excited that there are, there are brands that are so transparent, like I, I, I don't want to like, you know, promote any specific one, but you know, we both know Christopher from Christopher organics and organic votes.

52:14 What are my favorites? What are my favorites? I love how honest he is because I've interviewed people who, you know, creative vendors before and they will not for the life of them stay how they recommend using their products. And I understand from a legal standpoint, like maybe 10 years ago that that would, you know, be the, the situation. But now you can't do that anymore. You have to be honest. People want transparency. And that's also, I think what holds us back if you're not being transparent about your products. It's. It lends to the sketchiness that people who think that it is sketchy already. It really does. I'm noticing more and more kratom companies are being more transparent.

52:58 I've gotten to know some really cool ones like Christopher. Christopher puts out lots of educational information. He and I did an educational webinar together to help people that suffer with chronic pain because we both do. And my friend Abraham at Pure Infinity Botanicals, he puts out all these videos on YouTube. Just full transparency. He just did one last week, like talking about the packaging and how, you know, we could, you know, save money and, and buy all the packaging stuff through China. But we want to support some U.S. companies and they show different parts of their, their, their stuff. And like, we buy the these pouches from this company in this state and we buy and like just trying to show like, you know, all the things they do to help people.

53:41 And even that we have all these instructions on our packaging. And even when you turn it over on the bottom, we have a motivational quote to help people that are going through a hard time. It's like, wow, most people don't do stuff or don't think to do stuff like that. But when you have a company that's so transparent and they're like, we're just here to help everybody and we're here to educate, that's huge. So huge, so huge. And especially if you're going to offer your own personal experience with that, which I really love, you know, even when if you're saying, Oh, my dog takes this, you know, because I am fascinated with giving kratom to animals. I just think there are so many applications for it. And I think that like, people's lives could be infinitely better if they just try. Right, exactly.

54:27 But I can't always put that in words into words like like Christopher can or you can. But I, you know, I try to because sometimes the education part of it, you know, slips my, my brain a little bit because I want to talk more about the personal side of things. But you know, but I'm glad that there are, there are those sources out there now because like you said, there wasn't before. And I just hope that we can fight this current war on drugs that's happening because I, I feel like we have a lot more going for our side now than we did before. But it's also pretty terrifying at at how quickly these things gain momentum. So.

55:11 Right. Well, I think this is the key is to have stories like yours out here like this through the podcast and other ways of just spreading the message, these positive experiences with the plant that more people need to know about and then the naysayers need to see like this. This helps so many of us in a very positive way. And instead of just always clinging on to these click bait headlines of kratom kills, it's like. But they failed to mention that the person had fentanyl in their system as well. Or what about the supposed kratom death where the guy had a gunshot to the chest? Like isn't that what killed him? Why did you all remember that one from years back? It's like.

55:52 And then they try to paint you like you're being insensitive because you're actually pointing out the facts and it's like. Right. And it's like, yeah, this is something. That would actually impact my life. So I'm going to be a little bit, you know, I'm going to poke holes where I can poke holes. Right, exactly. And I would take away from, you know, the grieving families and and, you know, losing a loved one. But we know that kratom alone does not kill people. If it does, it's so rare. More people die every day from Tylenol or from other things that everybody. Else, I mean, jeez, do do some research on Benadryl and it will terrify you. Yeah. So, you know, there's there's so many things that kill people every single day, but why is it that everybody hyper focuses on Kratom?

56:39 So it gets frustrating. And since we've talked a lot, a lot about advocacy here, we'll start winding down because I feel like I talked to you all day. Wait for people watching this and they keep hearing us talk about all this advocacy stuff. What would you tell somebody that's like, I want to get more involved. I want, you know, this is inspiring me. I'm a kratom consumer. I want to help spread the message to what would you tell people that they could be doing right now to help spread more awareness and be an advocate? Share your work, go to your website. But seriously, though, I it, it really does keep me invigorated to see what you're doing and through the kratom corrals.

57:20 Am I saying that correctly? Everything that you're doing, you're working tirelessly. You know, a lot of my advocacy now is for all plant medicine because, you know, I do feel like the issue that we have, even with people who are pro plant medicine, like I said earlier, they don't really encompass all of them. They, they have certain attitudes, especially about kratom and it just doesn't make any sense. You know, it it, it doesn't make any sense to say like, oh, well, this plant is better than that plant because I know, because I use it, you know, it just, it doesn't make sense. But my point is sharing these, these stories like like you do like Christopher does there, there's a huge swath of ways to support through Reddit and TikTok. I mean, we're limited on social media for sure. But there is also a huge community there, you know, and you can find it if you look.

58:23 You have to look a little bit because of all the restrictions, right? But on sub stack, that's a good one, because sub stack doesn't censor in the same ways that other. Platforms yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm going to start doing more on sub stack because I think that's a good alternative for us to to I know Christopher is on there, but I'm going to set up my my crane stories podcast. I think I'm going to try using that for my e-mail list because it seems like I'm not seeing much censorship stuff over there, which is good. Yeah, and, and I would say, you know, do some reading. I know that all of our attention spans have shrunk drastically over the last few years, but, you know, there's so many essays and articles available.

59:08 If you do the research and read past some of these headlines that can be scary and see how, I mean, there there was a whole rehab center in Maine that is no longer that that saved hundreds of lives through kratom and cannabis. Like these things can happen if we open our minds a little bit and just try to to understand it a little bit more instead of operating from a place of fear. Because I think that's really what it comes down to is people are afraid. They think it's the same thing as an opioid. And the opioid crisis is still claiming lives and it's, you know, and, and there's a lot of trauma attached to that. And so people operate from a fear of thinking that that will happen again to themselves or to a loved one.

59:53 And it's not the same thing. It really isn't. And I just encourage you to to do extra research and Fact Check some of these things, you know? Because. It's too easy to do. It's just it takes a little bit of time. And you know, Christopher McCurdy, he's a great, great resource for that, right? In addition to your podcast and your shows and everything that you do. But I'm sure that you would say that he, he's also a really great resource. I've referenced him a lot in my work. And I know that research is still very limited. So that part can be challenging, but there are so many anecdotal accounts of how this can change your life.

1:00:39 And so I, I think that, you know, if you just open up your mind a little bit like that's, that's really what it is. And, and like I said, just try to educate yourself a little bit more, you know? I love that that there's been a great discussion with you. Diana, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. And you have a podcast blog you got like where? Where can people go find all your stuff? We have a podcast called Getting Personal with Plant Medicine and we talk about all different types. We talk about kratom a lot and, and Kava and, and cannabis. So yes, we're on any platform that you can find. And our media umbrella is called Your Highness media, which I did want to mention really quickly because when we were talking about earlier about being your highest self, that's kind of the impetus behind your Highness media. Like we we cover everything that it makes you operate on your highest level, right?

1:01:35 That that fights against the status quo but also encourages you to think for yourself. So we have a lot of plant medicine related things on our sub stack under your Highness media, but you also can find episodes getting personal on their recipes, cross promotions with other people. Yeah. So that's pretty much the place to find us because I've given up on trying to work with social media. I mean, I have the links, I'm on there sometimes, but it's, it's, it just feels like futile, honestly. Like especially Instagram, we're so shadow manned on there. It's frustrating for sure.

1:02:16 You need to come join us at Kratom Real talk. There's no censoring there because that's that. It's a what I did when I lost my first TikTok account back in December 2023 before I set up a new one. I'm like, and then my background is on community building, digital marketing, social media. It's like we didn't have a place that's not social media where we're not censored, where I can have the control instead of a billionaire bro, right? Or these tech giants. So I set it up on the school platform. School is awesome SKOOL, but I set it up kratomrealtalk.com. And definitely for those here, if you consume Holy of Kratom, you have positive experience with it. It's it's, it's basically a support group. It's a forum.

1:03:01 We we can talk all, we talk all about Kratom there. And it's like a Facebook group, but without all that censorship and BS that comes along with social media. Like we'll still be on social media. That's not going to go away. But let's have a place where we can go and hang out where we just don't have all that nonsense. So. So yeah, Kratom Real Talk is definitely the place to come come hang out for that. So yeah, we'd love for you to come in there because, boy, I know you'll add a lot to the conversations in there. But thank you so much, Reyna, for joining us. This has just been an amazing discussion. I really enjoy this. Same. Thank you so much.