Ep 81: From Pain to Purpose: Inside the Kratom Industry with MitWellness Founder Todd Underwood

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We wrote an SOP on how to make 7
hydroxy.

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We provided that to different,
different people.

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It's not complicated to make.
It's really not.

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And we figured this out about 3
years ago on how to make it.

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And I look back and we could
have been one of the early

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companies to release this
product.

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And I suspect based on the
numbers that some of these

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companies are producing minimum
of $50 million I left on the

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table.
And I and I, you know, I wonder,

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I was like, did I make the right
decision?

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And I always go back to, I won't
manufacture or distribute a

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product I wouldn't give to my
wife.

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And I couldn't, with a straight
face and a clear conscience,

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give my wife synthetic 7
hydroxy.

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So I'm here with Todd Underwood
from Mitt Wellness, a fellow

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kratom consumer, somebody that I
think a lot of people have heard

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of in the industry.
And Todd, I'm really excited to

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have you on the podcast to hear
your personal journey with this

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plant kratom and just learning
more about you.

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So tell us a little bit about
yourself and life before kratom.

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Yeah, it's, I'll kind of go back
to being three years old.

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At three years old, I was
diagnosed with a form of

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muscular dystrophy called
Charcot Marie tooth disease.

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It's a neurological disorder and
it's progressive.

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It gets progressively worse as I
age.

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And then when I was in high
school, I still played football

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and wrestled and was very
active.

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And it wasn't until my late 20s,
early 30s where I could really

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notice it progressing.
And because of that, I walk with

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a abnormal gait.
And because of that, I've always

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had lower back pain, hip pain,
upper back pain, just, you know,

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constant chronic acute pain
throughout my entire, you know,

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early adulthood.
I then at 34 years old, I had a

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heart attack and quadruple
bypass.

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And as a result of that, part of
the treatment plan was opioids.

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And I got on, you know, started
off with your standard opioid

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protocol and it kind of grew
into a point to where I was

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getting, you know, 90 milligrams
of Oxycontin every single day

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and up to 15 to 20 Percocets
every single day.

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And I got to be careful.
I'm, I'm not trying to make a

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health claim, I'm just giving
you my personal experience.

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It was February 17th of 2019.
That day I took 90 milligrams of

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Oxycontin and probably 20
Percocets.

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And I went to bed and I woke up
on February the 18th at 4:00 in

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the morning and I took a little
bottle with a screw top and I

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put 3 tablespoons or three
teaspoons of regular kratom

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powder in there with warm water.
Put it in there, put the lid on

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there and gave it a good shake.
Let it sit for about 5 minutes

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and then opened it up and drink
it and then rinse it out with

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water and drink it a few times
to make sure I got everything.

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And that was at 4:00 in the
morning.

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And that was the last time I
ever took an opioid.

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I standard opioid from that
point moving forward, I was able

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to manage whatever I had to
manage and only taking regular

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creating products and at the
time I was the chief operating

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officer of one of the largest
cannabis companies in the United

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States.
We had over 500 franchises.

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I never really saw any
therapeutic benefits out of CBD,

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but when I took kratom, I
instantly saw a correlation

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between what I felt and what the
product did.

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And so from that point moving
forward, I dedicated all of my

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professional time to researching
kratom, figuring out what it is.

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And you know, the biggest
problem with kratom is it tastes

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like cradle.
And so I, I got experienced

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through a regular kratom shot
from a large manufacturer and I,

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I, I really liked it.
And you know, so at that time I

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went into a smoke shop and I
bought 20 different kratom shots

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they had there.
And I went to a couple different

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shops and I at the time, you
know, I probably ended up with

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5060 different Kratom shots
sitting there and I took a

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little eyedropper and I tasted
every single one of them, some

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of them decent, some of them
absolutely horrendous.

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Having a culinary background
taste is always something I, I

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try to improve upon.
And so I just developed a little

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Excel spreadsheet of, you know,
here's the brand, here are the

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ingredients and just kind of
looked for clusterings of

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similarity on stuff I liked and
I didn't like.

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And so that's what kind of led
me to develop the first formula.

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And I actually developed this
formula in 2019.

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And since I came from the CBD
space in CBDA tincture,

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everything has a dropper top.
So naturally that's the product

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I developed.
I had a little 5MLA10ML and

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A30ML.
Maybe it was a 15ML.

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But anyway, three different
sizes, all with dropper tops.

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And that was kind of the start
of of the launch of this

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company.
And it wasn't until I had a

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large white label order where a
guy said I don't want dropper

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tops, I want a flat lid on
there.

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And that was kind of the start
of Mint Wellness back in 2019.

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And that grew into what we have
here today.

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So in Blue Springs, MO, we have
our extraction facility, which

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is our original headquarters.
That's around 15,000 square

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feet.
We bought another building a

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couple years ago and we finished
that out.

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This is where I am now.
It's our bottling

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administration.
We got somewhere around 75,000

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square feet right here.
And we're can't go into too much

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details, but we have overseas
operations we're developing as

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well.
That's an incredible story.

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You just like the whole journey
compacted like really short.

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That's amazing.
We discovered kratom around the

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same time I started a month
after you the very first time I

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took kratom after nine years of
opiates for my chronic pain and

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you know, learning about kratom,
doing my research and then just

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giving it a go.
I did same thing.

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I woke up 1, you know, the next
morning after taking my opiates

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the night before and tried
kratom and that was the start of

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of my journey as well.
And it's it's just an incredible

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plant that helps so many of us
and suffer with chronic pain.

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Well I mean it's what I've
noticed is it's not just people

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using it for relief.
People also use it for energy

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pre workouts.
For some people, the the right

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serving helps you take a rest or
relaxes you in lower servings.

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Obviously it gives you a pretty
good energy jolt.

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So we've custom formulated a lot
of combo products that give you

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different desired effects.
You know, some some we've mixed

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with other caffeine analogs kind
of give you a jolt of energy.

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And you know, obviously we have
a, a very popular product called

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mood that makes us calve and
kratom like a lot of people

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these days.
So we, we just you know as as

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the market demands our product
evolution will continue.

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Yeah.
How did you first hear about

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kratom and what made you decide
to try it?

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Well, it's The funny thing is I
was the chief operating officer

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of CBD American Shaman and
everybody knows that company

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because Vince Sanders, the owner
of that company is the number

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one producer of seven hydroxy
right now.

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And he actually is the guy that
gave me my first kilo of Kratom

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powder.
And what was funny is we, we, we

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started the original Kratom
company as a third party company

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that was exclusively going to
sell to the franchises that we

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helped create.
And their legal counsel back in

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2022, two thousand 20/21/22
wouldn't allow us to sell kratom

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to the franchise because of the
risk threshold they said.

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And now it's just extremely
funny that here we are today,

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they're selling synthetic 7
hydroxy at every one of the

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franchises.
So regular kratom powder didn't

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meet their risk threshold, but
synthetic unproven drugs

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basically do meet their risk
threshold, which I find to be

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very comical.
Wow that's interesting for sure.

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So what was it about kratom that
made you decide to try and and

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and take that instead of the
opiates?

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Well, it's, you know, when you,
when you still like to maintain

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a pretty active lifestyle and
the, when you look at the toll

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that typical pain management
treatments give you, it's just,

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it's horrendous and hard on your
body.

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And I've always been open to
different therapies that were

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plant based.
And that's what just kind of got

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me involved in in looking at
alternatives to see what would

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work.
Yeah, yeah.

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I mean, so many people I've
talked to that use, I mean, they

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use cream for a, a variety of
things, but there are so many of

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us that suffer with chronic
pain, very debilitating chronic

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pain and, and traditional, you
know, opiates and other things

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that the doctors prescribed just
don't always do enough.

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And then they prescribe
something on top of what they're

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already prescribing.
And before you know it, you

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know, we're taking so many
different medications.

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I was able to stop all, all the
opiates and gabapentin and

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muscle relaxers.
I with just kratom which was

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amazing to me.
I'm going to I'll get in a

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timeline with you.
In 2006, Oxycontin was approved

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by the FDA as the first non
addictive opioid.

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That's how it was originally
approved and marketed in 2012.

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That year was the highest number
of prescribed opioids per capita

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at any time in human history.
In 2012 was also the first time

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the FDA said anything about
Crate.

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I'll let you draw your own
conclusions, but I find it to be

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extremely convenient that when
opioids are at their absolute

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Max prescriptions, that's when
the FDA decided to go after a

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natural plant remedy.
That's very interesting.

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Wow, did not know that was when
they started with that.

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What what changed between that
time and in 2016 when they like,

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were like, you know, we're going
to shut this down in 30 days?

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I don't know, I wasn't in the
kratom space at that time.

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So I'm, I'm hearing all of this
second hand information or

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reading what I can, I'll let you
put on a tinfoil hat and look at

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whatever conspiracy theory you
want.

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I know that I was extremely
pleased when the F director of

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the FDA on January or sorry,
July 29th acknowledged we

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understand there's kratom out
there and we're not concerned

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with traditional kratom
products.

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What we are concerned with or
synthetic opioids being

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masqueraded as dietary
supplements called synthetic 7

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hydroxy.
And then I know there's people

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out there watching this right
now, they're going to argue,

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well, it's not synthetic, it's
semi synthetic, it's not

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natural.
Let's all agree there.

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Yeah, that's a good way of
putting it because it isn't

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natural and so many people say
it's just kratom or it's just

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stronger kratom, but it's not
the same as your regular

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traditional kratom.
No.

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And I'll put it to you like
this, I don't know how many

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thousands and thousands of kilos
of extract we've produced over

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the years. 99% of the time on a
standard HPLC, the LOQ on 7

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hydroxy in our product is below
the detectable level.

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So and that's at a pure, that's
at an extract level.

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So by the time it gets down to
the finished product, you know,

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there's not enough 7 hydroxy in
there to actually do anything to

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the human body.
And then people always make that

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argument.
Well, people's liver converts 20

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to 30% of metrogenine over to 7
hydroxy.

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It's the same molecule, but it's
not the same thing.

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And let me explain the formal
kinetics of why it's different

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when you consume kratom or a
naturally extracted kratom

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product with the plethora of
alkaloids that are in there,

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kind of a full spectrum or a
broad spectrum, however you want

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to define it.
Your body has a processing

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mechanism and a built in buffer
that throttles the amount of

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seven hydroxy you're getting.
It also has the other alkaloids

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that your body is also, you
know, digesting, running through

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the liver that create a Symphony
of of things going on in your

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body that has a proven track
record of safety.

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Doctor McCurdy, I forget where I
was at and I actually heard him

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say this first hand.
There are alkaloids in the

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kratom plant that if you
isolated them and consume them

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at the same level that they are
found in the natural kratom

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plant.
So if you had a isolated

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alkaloid in the same level that
it's found in natural leaf, if

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you consume that as an isolate,
it would be deadly.

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But the fact that you're
consuming a natural extract

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product or a natural leaf
product with the Symphony of

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00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,840
alkylates in there, your body
has some sort of mechanism that

224
00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,360
knows how to process those.
And Doctor Mccurdy's response

225
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:14,960
was nature's always known best.
And it's also another funny

226
00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:20,680
thing when heart, the Holistic
Alternative Recovery Trust, or I

227
00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:23,640
think that's what they are that
nonprofit dedicated to 7

228
00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,120
hydroxy.
They like to quote Doctor Jack

229
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:30,520
Henningfeld when he did his
original 8 factor analysis when

230
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:34,360
he said kratom doesn't meet the
level of scheduling back in

231
00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:35,640
2018.
I think it was.

232
00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,560
What they failed to identify or
really look at the fine points

233
00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:44,080
is synthetic 7 hydroxy wasn't on
the market in 2018.

234
00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:48,840
So to look at a study done on
natural kratom products with a

235
00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,880
natural amount of real 7 hydroxy
in there and then try to

236
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,440
conflate that into some sort of
evidence that synthetic isolated

237
00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,520
pure 7 hydroxy is now safe for
human consumption, is completely

238
00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:05,280
asinine, doesn't pass any
regulatory mustard and and makes

239
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,600
the entire industry look stupid
to be quite frank with you so.

240
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:16,040
Yeah, fascinating information.
And yeah, I have noticed that

241
00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,000
whole thing with Henningfield,
that heart does.

242
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,200
I listen to, you know, I love
Doctor McCurdy and the way he

243
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,920
talks about kratom being a
Symphony, the way the alkaloids

244
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,680
work.
I definitely feel that as

245
00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:31,480
somebody that consumes kratom
powder, that it just the way I

246
00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:36,320
it reduces my chronic pain to
the point that I forget that I

247
00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:38,840
even live with this.
I've degenerative disc disease,

248
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,760
which doesn't get better, it
just gets worse.

249
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:43,440
And it's been very debilitating
for me.

250
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:45,760
And it's like, it's like I
forget that I even have that

251
00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,200
because I'm not feeling it the
way I did with the opiates, you

252
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,320
know, I feel, I felt even though
I took a lot of opiates, I felt

253
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,200
it every day.
It was still a struggle.

254
00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:56,920
It was hard.
The medicine helped, but not

255
00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,720
nothing to me like kratom does,
like kratom has just been

256
00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:02,800
phenomenal.
I'm just, and that's why I

257
00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,280
advocate so much Todd, because I
never heard of it when I was in

258
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,520
pain management for 9 years.
I never heard of kratom.

259
00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,120
Nobody ever talked about it.
I, I didn't discover it until I

260
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,680
got dropped from pain management
because the doctors are too

261
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:16,440
scared to prescribe.
They just won't prescribe

262
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,640
anymore.
And they, they sent me a letter

263
00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:20,840
saying we're not prescribing our
patients anymore.

264
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,560
No other doctors would take
over, you know, 2019.

265
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,040
No doctors would take over back
then.

266
00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,800
And, and I know it's worse now,
but thank God I found this plant

267
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,000
that's been life changing for me
and it's like I want people to

268
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,440
know about it.
Yeah, I mean, it all comes down

269
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,440
to education and educating
people, you know, one consumer

270
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,640
at a time.
It's, I think that right now,

271
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,000
the way kratom's positioned,
especially with the recent

272
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,440
attention from the FDA, I think
it's a perfect time to be in

273
00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,160
this industry that we are.
I think there's nothing but

274
00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:55,680
future growth opportunities.
And I, I think it's, I think the

275
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,400
future belongs to the companies
that follow regulation.

276
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:03,840
And one of my biggest concerns
is there are thousands of these

277
00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,880
vendors out there that people
brag upon and say how great they

278
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:11,360
are and they're being
manufactured in their garage and

279
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,680
packaged in their garage in
unsanitary conditions.

280
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,440
I mean, in order to do this in
order to, because in, in the

281
00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,920
United States, everything you
consume is either a food, a drug

282
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,320
or a supplement.
And supplements are a division

283
00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,240
of the food program.
And if you're going to

284
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:31,000
manufacture dietary supplements
for human consumption, the first

285
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,240
thing is your facility has to be
registered with the FDA.

286
00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,440
All three of our facilities are
registered with the FDA.

287
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:43,080
You also have to follow Chapter
111 and 117 and one, 9111 is

288
00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,120
what regulates dietary
supplements.

289
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:52,080
Part 117 is what regulates GMP
and 190.6 is a new dietary

290
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,440
ingredient notification.
And then you also, if you're

291
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,400
having a liquid formula, you
need a process authority letter.

292
00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,520
Process authority letters.
When you send your formula to a

293
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,880
independent food laboratory,
they look at your processing,

294
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:06,960
how do you manufacture this
product?

295
00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,599
And then they verify your
manufacturing process and then

296
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:14,480
they look for shelf stability to
prove your formula will be free

297
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,720
of Botulism and foodborne
bacteria based on how it's

298
00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:23,400
stored.
So that's why it takes a lot of

299
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,119
work to actually get there and
do that.

300
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,480
And that's what terrifies me
when you have a lot of these

301
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,040
companies, and I'm not going to
say anybody by name, but it's

302
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,320
companies.
I've seen a lot of your

303
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,480
followers talk about how they
love this company.

304
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,280
And you know, you look at their
website, they're not registered

305
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,920
with the FDA, they have Coas.
If they do show them they're 6-7

306
00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,080
months old, You look at their
packaging, there's no expiration

307
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:50,560
date, no batch numbers on there.
So it's all these questions.

308
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:54,480
This is how people get hurt.
And as, as consumers, what you

309
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,560
need to know is you need to hold
your manufacturers to these

310
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,280
standards or find a different
manufacturer.

311
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,960
And I know that it, it pisses a
lot of people off when you say

312
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,920
you shouldn't be doing this
because they're passionate about

313
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,440
it.
But passion doesn't, you know,

314
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,040
mean that you're being
compliant.

315
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:18,320
And there was a kratom company
back in 2018 that didn't lab

316
00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,480
test their products
appropriately and salmonella got

317
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,480
through and it made a lot of
people sick.

318
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:28,200
And that company has gone to
tremendous lengths these days to

319
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,040
be very compliant.
And they've done a great job.

320
00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,520
So I'm not going to, I'm not
bringing that up to, you know,

321
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,720
to throw stones at them because
they are a very compliant

322
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,520
company now.
But when you look at how many of

323
00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,480
these vendors that people talk
about on your podcast or your

324
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,160
groups that you know they're
making it in their garage.

325
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:49,480
If they're not lab tests and
everything, they don't know what

326
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,280
a batch certificate is.
They don't know how to do all

327
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,400
these things.
Just because you're passionate

328
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,600
about kratom doesn't mean you'll
be able to turn it into a

329
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:57,560
business.
Takes a lot of money.

330
00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:02,040
I bet we spend 4 or $500,000 a
year on compliance just to make

331
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,360
sure we're following Title 111
and 117.

332
00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:08,400
How do we consumers know who's
doing everything right?

333
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,720
I know the American KREM
Association has their GMP list

334
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,240
of, of the people that are, you
know, that they have certified

335
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,600
to be compliant through GMP.
You get, I mean, look, when I

336
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,840
started in 2019, consuming
kratom packaging was a lot

337
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:23,200
different.
There wasn't that much

338
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,560
information being put out
through through different kratom

339
00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,920
companies.
Whereas now in 2025, packaging

340
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,440
is really stepped up.
We just it just seems like

341
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:36,520
things have changed for the
better for the consumers, but

342
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,080
still, how do we know I.
Mean, you know.

343
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:41,480
Yeah, how do we know?
Great question.

344
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,240
Traditionally it's hard to find
AGMP auditor to work with Gray

345
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:51,200
market botanicals like kratom.
So you can't contact your main

346
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,800
GMP authorities and have them
come in and do a third party

347
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:59,560
audit on you.
And So what the AKA did, they're

348
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,920
now on what they call GMP 3
point O.

349
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:07,400
Years ago they started a
baseline GMP certification and I

350
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,640
will I will equate it to GMP
light or watered down version,

351
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:17,200
but it was a starting point.
Robert Durkin is my FDA

352
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,120
compliance attorney.
Robert Durkin was the deputy

353
00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:22,680
director of the Food and Drug
Administration's dietary cell

354
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:28,560
phone program at one point.
So he understands GMP 111 and

355
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,960
all those regulations under 21
CFR better than anybody.

356
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,200
And he worked with the AKH over
the past couple years to really

357
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,280
beef up their GMP program and
their auditing process.

358
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,280
So you want to know, how do you
know that your products are

359
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,120
being made in accordance to
standard dietary supplement

360
00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:47,560
rules and regulations?
Go to the American Creative

361
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,800
Association, look at their GMP
approved vendors.

362
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,760
Without some sort of third party
verification, you have no idea

363
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:57,760
of what you're consuming is safe
for human consumption.

364
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,360
That's number one.
Number two, if you look at the

365
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:04,240
GNP vendors, let me let me back
up.

366
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,760
Kratom would not be legal and
available in the United States

367
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,040
if it wasn't for the American
Kratom Association.

368
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,920
It's a fact.
Anybody that says otherwise

369
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,320
doesn't know the history.
Mac Hadow worked harder than any

370
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,160
human being on earth to make
sure kratom didn't get

371
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,000
scheduled, and then he brought
an organization to the kratom

372
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:24,840
industry in the form of GMP
programs.

373
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,040
It's those vendors that are
participating with the American

374
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,400
Kratom Association that are
funding these initiatives.

375
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,680
So if you want to make sure
kratom stays legal and stays

376
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,720
safe and stays available for
human consumption, I highly

377
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,160
recommend picking your favorite
vendor off of the American

378
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,080
Kratom Association's website and
choosing one of them.

379
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,160
Because we are the ones paying
the bill to fight the good fight

380
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,280
when it needs to be fought.
So all these other people that

381
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,720
aren't contributing financially
or following GMP protocols are

382
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,200
part of the problem.
They are putting the kratom

383
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,720
industry at jeopardy.
I'm going to get a lot of Flack

384
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,960
for saying that, but I don't
care because it's true and.

385
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,160
You know, as consumers, we
appreciate that.

386
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,160
We want honesty.
We want to know where the best

387
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:16,000
places to purchase our Kratom
from And the ones that are on

388
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,080
the American Crime Association
list, I mean, I purchased mine

389
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,040
from some of those other ones
that are on my list are ones

390
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:23,920
that I've personally gotten to
know.

391
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,560
I've talked to the people and,
you know, I mean, I've heard

392
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:29,960
like, I don't know all the
details, but like some of them

393
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,600
say, yeah, you know, we're
working to be certified through

394
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,320
the AK AS program.
I've heard other people say it's

395
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,880
expensive to do that, but that
they're following the, you know,

396
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:41,960
self.
I guess self regulation is what

397
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:43,200
it is, right?
Time out.

398
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,880
Yeah, paying $5000 for the AKA
to give you AGMP certification.

399
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,600
It's too expensive.
You don't have the capacity to

400
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,040
be selling dietary supplements.
That's a great point and I

401
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,960
totally agree with that.
So how do we know like with some

402
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,160
of these companies?
So, so you're saying that if

403
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:05,800
they're not doing this through
the AKA, then they're just we're

404
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:07,520
not 100% sure what they're
doing?

405
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,240
What, what age, what third party
agency?

406
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:15,280
Because when you, when you have
AGMP audit it, it outlines

407
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,680
everything required in 21 CFR.
That's code of federal

408
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,200
regulations.
They look at everything that

409
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,000
you're required to do.
They come in, they verify you're

410
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,920
registered with the FDA as a
food manufacturing facility.

411
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,960
They, they, they verify that you
have batch numbers and lot

412
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,040
numbers on every product.
You have traceability on

413
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,480
everything.
I'll put it to you like this.

414
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,000
I don't have a bottle in my
office right now with my label

415
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,640
on there, but if I showed you a
bottle of my product, it's going

416
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,800
to have a batch number on there.
And based on that batch number,

417
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:53,000
I can put it into our system and
I can pull up all the raw

418
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,080
ingredients that are in that
bottle and I can show you the

419
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,240
lot number and COA on all those
raw ingredients.

420
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,480
I can even trace it back to
these kilos of kratom powder

421
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:08,040
were extracted On this date.
You can make this extract which

422
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,160
went in this batch, which went
in this bag of kratom extract

423
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,520
that went into this formula,
which went into this bottle.

424
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,240
You have to be able to prove
that.

425
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:20,280
And also I can look at that
batch number and based on that

426
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,120
batch number, I can tell you
every single person that was

427
00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:26,800
shipped one of those bottles.
That is called traceability.

428
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,920
That is what is required.
That's the minimum requirement.

429
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,960
So it's not an easy thing to do.
It takes a lot of manpower, it

430
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,920
takes a lot of systems, a lot of
organization, a lot of learning

431
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:41,640
the law and following through on
things.

432
00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:44,920
And when I say that there's a
certain barrier of entry that

433
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,320
you have to be able to exceed to
be get into this business, I

434
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,600
mean it.
And when you start taking

435
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,400
shortcuts, you don't test
everything, you don't assign lot

436
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,040
numbers.
If you look at a bag of kratom

437
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,200
that you have in your warehouse
and you can't tell me every

438
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,960
single individual that purchased
some of that kratom, there's a

439
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,520
problem with that.
We also have to keep a sample of

440
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,800
every finished good that we
have, and we even take it above

441
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,920
and beyond that.
Every time we get in caffeine,

442
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,840
we keep a sample of it with that
lot number and file it away.

443
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,840
The propylene glycol, the
propandiol, the flavorings, the

444
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:22,040
sucralose, the stevia, every
single ingredient we keep a

445
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,240
retain because if there's ever
an issue, we need to be able to

446
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,760
identify where it came from,
where was this hazard introduced

447
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,400
into our process.
And then every time we have a

448
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,760
finished bag of extract, we keep
retains of that batch number.

449
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,360
Anytime we make a barrel of
finished good, we keep retains

450
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:43,120
of that product.
So if Jane Doe gets one of our

451
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:46,600
products and says this product
made me sick, what's the batch

452
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,760
number?
I can go to the retain here in

453
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,600
my factory, pull that retain of
the exact same formula as she

454
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,160
had and I can start doing
analytical testing immediately.

455
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,400
Because we have an HPLC in house
that's high pressure liquor

456
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,680
chromatography.
It tests for all of the

457
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,560
potencies.
We have microbial testing and we

458
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,400
have bacteria.
So we have the ability to

459
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,760
immediately identify if there if
there's a problem.

460
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,760
Now if Jane Doe says this
product made her sick and I'd go

461
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,600
back to my retain of that exact
batch number and it's free from

462
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,440
any food bone bacteria.
Well, it got introduced after

463
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,480
the sale from us somehow.
Or if we find out there is

464
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,760
something in that batch that's
bad, then we can go look at all

465
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,560
of our raw ingredients and test
those.

466
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,680
We can determine where that raw
ingredient came from and then go

467
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,760
back and test that.
So how do you know your

468
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,160
companies are doing that?
Unless you have a third party

469
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,440
GMP audit verifying that you
follow that, you don't.

470
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,520
You're rolling the dice.
You're assuming they're doing it

471
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,920
the right way.
I would implore you, I'll have

472
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,880
them fly you out here and let
you tour our facility and show

473
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,640
you what it takes to do things
the right way.

474
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:55,840
Yeah, and it's important that
things are done the right way as

475
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,080
consumers, that we know what we
are putting in our bodies is

476
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:00,840
safe and is not going to harm
us.

477
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,560
And it's great learning all
about this from Utah.

478
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,320
So thank you for for helping
educate me and my community on

479
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,480
all of this.
That's what makes this interview

480
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,440
extra special because we're not
only hearing your personal

481
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,520
journey with kratom, but also
learning more about the industry

482
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,240
and how things are done and how
they need to be done right.

483
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,480
But yeah, this is, I love this
information.

484
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,560
But let's go back to your story
for a moment, back to when you

485
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,840
first started kratom.
I love hearing all this other

486
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:30,560
stuff and I'm sure we'll have
more of it 'cause I love these

487
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,240
kinds of stories you've been
sharing with us.

488
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,280
But going back into a little bit
more of your personal experience

489
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,760
with kratom, when you first
started it on that day in 2019,

490
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,800
what was that experience like?
And you said, like you took

491
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,400
kratom from then forward, no
more opiate.

492
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,520
So like, did it just work
amazingly well from the very

493
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:54,440
first dose?
No, it's, it's, I don't like to

494
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,320
be medicated.
I don't like to take anything I

495
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,480
don't have to take.
And given the fact that I have

496
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,000
muscular dystrophy, I've had
three heart attacks, I have one

497
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,320
functioning lung.
I take a lot of heart medicine,

498
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,320
blood pressure stuff.
And if I don't have to take it,

499
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,160
I, I do whatever I have to do to
not take something.

500
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,080
And with, with your standard
opioids, you always felt like

501
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,520
you're under a fog.
You always felt medicated.

502
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:26,640
The beauty with kratom for me is
it did just enough to help give

503
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,880
me the relief I was looking for.
But as an added bonus, it had

504
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,280
some stimulating properties that
kind of kept my mind in the

505
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,920
game.
So it, it, it was just a, an

506
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:41,600
immediate I, I knew what I got.
And for three or four years I

507
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,160
was taking CBD like every one of
my Co workers every day.

508
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,400
And I even owned multiple CBD
franchises at the time.

509
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,000
And what was funny is have you
ever taken CBD?

510
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:54,640
Yes, I have.
OK.

511
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:56,520
Do you feel anything?
No.

512
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,480
No, now that it died, but I
would sit there and we'd sample

513
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,560
it on a franchise level to all
of our prospective customers and

514
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:06,520
they would say, oh, wow, I feel
it.

515
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:08,960
And I've been in my in my mind,
I'd be like, OK, great.

516
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,960
You feel something.
And in my mind, I'm like, I

517
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,440
never felt anything from taking
CBD.

518
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,640
When you took or when I took
kratom, within 10 to 15 minutes,

519
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,760
I felt that I took something.
I knew I took something.

520
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,840
And when you look at our NDIN,
our new dietary ingredient

521
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:34,080
notification, the study that we
did, 90% of all participants

522
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,960
didn't know if they were taking
a placebo or 30 milligrams.

523
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,320
They couldn't tell.
Now at 50 milligrams, 100% of

524
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,880
the people knew they were taking
50 milligrams.

525
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,600
So it was kind of that sweet
spot of 50 milligrams that it

526
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,760
became effective.
I know Ryan from MIT 45 is very

527
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,520
strong in his opinion that 25
milligrams needs to be the the

528
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,600
starting serving.
I respect his rationale and his

529
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,480
opinion behind that.
His theory is for a first time

530
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,240
consumer that's never had
kratom, nobody's going to have a

531
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:10,960
bad experience with 25
milligrams.

532
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:12,600
I agree with him.
He's right.

533
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:18,560
But our safety data suggests
that 50 milligrams based on our

534
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,920
extract because our extract is
unique and based on our

535
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,720
uniqueness of our extract, we
feel that 50 milligrams is the

536
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,800
safe serving suggestion for
based on our safety data.

537
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,520
And how familiar with the NDIM
process are you?

538
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:37,520
Not too familiar.
OK, well #1 in 1994, when Duchet

539
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,080
was passed the Dietary
Supplement Health and Education

540
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,880
Act, it was signed into law on
October 15th.

541
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:48,000
And just like when Jesus Christ
was born, you had AD and BC,

542
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,360
October 15th created a similar
date time stamp in our calendar.

543
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,600
In the United States, every
dietary ingredient that was

544
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,600
regularly available on commerce
at that time is classified as an

545
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:04,680
ODI, an old dietary ingredient,
and they were grandfathered in.

546
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,240
Everything that's introduced
into the food supply post

547
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:13,720
October 15th is called a NDIA,
new dietary ingredient.

548
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,400
And if you're going to introduce
a new dietary ingredient into

549
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,440
the food supply, you're required
to file a new dietary ingredient

550
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,240
notification.
That's all the more

551
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:23,960
abbreviations I'm going to go
over with right now.

552
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,200
But anyway, when you file an
NDIN, you first have to identify

553
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,680
what is it?
What are you called?

554
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,000
What is your dietary ingredient?
Then you have to demonstrate how

555
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,920
do you make it?
Is it reliable?

556
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,560
Is it consistent?
Do you have all the data to

557
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,440
clearly identify what it is?
Can you chemically characterize

558
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,680
it?
It how do we know what it is?

559
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,720
Then once you establish its
identity and establish an

560
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:50,560
identity isn't as easy as you
would think.

561
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,000
Once you establish identity, the
next question is, is it safe?

562
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,000
Well, is it safe based on what?
Based on your conditions of use.

563
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:05,640
So our product recommends 18 and
older, 50 milligrams at a time,

564
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,880
non pregnant.
So we had to prove that our it,

565
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,080
our extract was safer in
consumption.

566
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,080
If you're 18 years or older and
you're not pregnant and you're

567
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,880
only taking 50 milligrams at a
time, no more than 150

568
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,720
milligrams throughout the day,
based on that condition of use,

569
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,640
we proved it was safe.
Now, if you're going to

570
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,680
introduce a product, a
manufacturer has to have what's

571
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,800
called a reasonable assumption
of safety based on your

572
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,880
conditions of use prior to
market entry.

573
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,600
Those are very specific terms
required under 21 CFR.

574
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,360
So for example, three years ago
when they introduced 7 hydroxy

575
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:50,360
in the market, what certainty
did any of these manufacturers

576
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,080
have that the product was safe
for human consumption?

577
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,000
Zero.
Yeah, that's what I figured.

578
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,480
None.
No, the the seven hydroxy

579
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,920
community loves to say that.
Well, five, you know, 1 billion

580
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,880
servings have been served and
nobody's dead yet there, that

581
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,680
proves it's safe.
Harm begins prior to death.

582
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,080
That's one thing that they fail
to understand.

583
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,600
Just because it doesn't kill you
doesn't mean it's not harming

584
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,200
you.
Addiction can cause harm.

585
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,120
So a lot of other things cause
harm other than just death.

586
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,120
And I'm not sure if you saw the
news article from the LA County

587
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,200
Health Department, they now have
black and white confirmed

588
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,320
evidence. 7 Hydroxy has killed
people.

589
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,080
I saw that, yeah.
Yeah, so there goes the entire

590
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,800
industry's evidence of, well, it
hasn't killed anybody yet as

591
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,000
their justification for being on
market.

592
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:44,680
But you know, all those
products, those seven OH

593
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,880
products came out into the
market very heavily, increasing

594
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:53,760
those milligram doses
exponentially and it's like they

595
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:55,400
just introduced it.
No, no.

596
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,640
Like what you're talking about
like going through the process

597
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,200
and showing you're putting out
safe products into a market.

598
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,760
Well, it's when you look at the
identity of it all these labs

599
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,920
are creating a different it
their identities different

600
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,400
because when you look at this
product under an NMR, a nuclear

601
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:18,560
test, there are a multitude of
unidentified organic peaks that

602
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,600
are in these products that they
haven't identified what they

603
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,800
are.
So we have no idea what they

604
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,960
are, what they do to the human
body, any of the shorter long

605
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,520
term health risk.
There's no way of having any

606
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,920
evidence that these products are
safe for human consumption.

607
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,400
And I know that Michelle Ross
and a few of those other people

608
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:42,000
that are paid endorsers of seven
Hydroxy, they, they love to sit

609
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:43,639
there and say, well, it hasn't
killed anybody yet.

610
00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:44,840
They're there.
That proves it safe.

611
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,639
Well, now we have evidence to
the contrary and I can't wait to

612
00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:50,320
see them tap dancing around the
subject.

613
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,679
Yeah, and, and The thing is
there's there's kratom whole

614
00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:58,000
leaf powder, there's kratom
extracts, and there's these

615
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,560
seven OH, products.
And what I'm finding is a lot of

616
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,560
people are confused.
They don't understand that

617
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,080
there's all these different
things.

618
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,240
So many people think kratom is
kratom.

619
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,960
So how do you explain the
differences when somebody's

620
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:10,880
like, what?
What are all these products?

621
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:12,320
I thought it's all the same
thing.

622
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,280
You know, it's caveon inventor.
That means buyer beware.

623
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,640
I think that two or three years
from now, we're going to look

624
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,600
back at this time and wonder
what the hell were people

625
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,320
thinking?
Because it's already an 8 or $9

626
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,160
billion industry that gives
these companies a lot of

627
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:38,280
lobbying power.
I suspect that's why the DEA

628
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,800
hasn't scheduled it yet.
I mean, because the DEA came out

629
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,360
with the FDA very strong on July
29th.

630
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:46,960
We know what it is.
We know where it's being made

631
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,240
and we're going to get it.
Then nothing's happened.

632
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:58,480
Nothing's happened and it's it,
it, it makes me question things

633
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:03,080
because we wrote an SOP on how
to make 7 hydroxy.

634
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,880
We provided that to different,
different people.

635
00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:10,920
It's not complicated to make.
It's really not.

636
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,520
And we figured this out about 3
years ago on how to make it.

637
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,400
And I look back and we could
have been one of the early

638
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,200
companies to release this
product.

639
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,520
And I suspect based on the
numbers that some of these

640
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,360
companies are producing minimum
of $50 million I left on the

641
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:33,400
table.
And I and I, you know, I wonder,

642
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:34,880
I was like, did I make the right
decision?

643
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,720
And I always go back to, I won't
manufacture or distribute a

644
00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:40,160
product I wouldn't give to my
wife.

645
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,880
And I couldn't with a straight
face and a clear conscience,

646
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,760
give my wife synthetic 7
hydroxy.

647
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,880
So I know I made the right
decision.

648
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,720
And I know that when these
products get removed, this is

649
00:36:53,720 --> 00:36:56,960
kind of a a fortunately,
unfortunately situation.

650
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,360
I don't know this $8 billion
industry, how many of those were

651
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,800
taken away from kratom or how
many of those were organic brand

652
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,560
new consumers.
But when 7 hydroxy does get

653
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:14,440
banned, their only choice is
going to be to go back to

654
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,680
regular kratom products.
So unfortunately, I think that,

655
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:23,160
you know, I don't like it by
design, but I think the future

656
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,840
looks very good for people that
have played by the rules all

657
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:27,720
along and make good, true,
honest products.

658
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,200
Yeah.
And as a consumer, we appreciate

659
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,640
that you and other kratom
manufacturers did the right

660
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:35,480
thing.
I've talked to other

661
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,640
manufacturers, said same thing
as you, that they could have

662
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,120
gone down that road but chose
not to because it just wasn't

663
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,040
the right thing to do.
It's not something they'd give

664
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:47,920
to a family member.
But you know, it's, we're all

665
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,000
like waiting to see what does
the DEA do next?

666
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,760
So what do you think is the DEA
doing right now?

667
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:55,720
Because nothing has happened
yet?

668
00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:57,840
Where is this going to go?
I don't know.

669
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:02,760
It's it's, I've heard, you know,
the same rumors that everybody

670
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,200
else has heard.
And what's funny is I remember

671
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,120
having this conversation with
one of our lawyers.

672
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,240
This is 3 years ago when 7
Hydroxy first came on the scene

673
00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:16,120
started getting popular and
everybody's every responsible

674
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,800
company out there was like,
don't worry about it, don't get

675
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:20,360
involved.
It'll be gone quick.

676
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,800
The FDA is not going to let this
fly.

677
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,880
Then three months later, we're
all sitting there scratching our

678
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:31,920
heads like, OK, what's going on?
Then six months later, same

679
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:33,600
question.
You know what, what's going on?

680
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:34,920
What?
You know why?

681
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,280
Why is this product still here?
Then it was a year later, year

682
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,520
and a half later.
And then like, OK, the FDA and

683
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,280
DEA finally said something,
they're going to get it and here

684
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,680
we are going on 45 days later,
nothing.

685
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:52,120
So I don't know what's going on.
Yeah, I'm just so surprised the

686
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,000
FDA made the big deal.
And, you know, they said what

687
00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:01,320
they said and then, you know, we
recommended this to the to the

688
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,040
DEA and it's like, OK, we're.
And The thing is though, for me

689
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,800
personally, I don't like the
idea of it being schedule one

690
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:09,480
because then there can't be any
research.

691
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,680
I would prefer that there could
be research on this.

692
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,440
And the people I talked to that
use it for their chronic pain,

693
00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:19,200
that consume it responsibly, say
it's amazing and that they don't

694
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,800
have.
How can somebody consume 7

695
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,320
hydroxy responsibly?
I've talked to people that say

696
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,280
they did their research, they
they didn't abuse their opiates

697
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,240
or there's they can't get them
anymore.

698
00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:32,960
So they're trying to seven.
OH, and they're just using small

699
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,880
amounts of it.
Yeah, but how can you use a

700
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:40,720
product made by unregulated,
unregistered companies made with

701
00:39:40,720 --> 00:39:42,960
unknown compounds with no safety
data?

702
00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:45,800
It's a it's a rhetorical
question.

703
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,520
How can one use that
responsibly?

704
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:49,760
Yeah.
No, I get you.

705
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,200
Yeah.
If if I said I'm using heroin

706
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:54,840
responsibly.
Right.

707
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:56,640
No, I get you.
That makes perfect sense.

708
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:58,600
I'm I'm just talking about what
they've said to me.

709
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:00,520
But that's a great point.
That's a great point.

710
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:05,120
Seriously articulate the
difference between heroin and

711
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,360
its manufacturing process and
seven hydroxy in its

712
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,400
manufacturing process.
Articulate the safety difference

713
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,240
to me.
What makes one?

714
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:17,400
How can you say 1 is being used
responsibly and one is not?

715
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:18,680
What if?
What if?

716
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:23,000
What if my heroin manufacturer
follows strict safety protocols

717
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,640
and make sure it's pure and
packages it correctly and says

718
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,920
don't take too much?
Does that mean I'm consuming

719
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,240
heroin responsibly?
That's a great point.

720
00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:34,520
I love this talk because you
know, you're you're bringing a

721
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,920
point of view that's never
talked about and that's an

722
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,600
excellent point.
Plus, the shocker when Doctor

723
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,520
McCurdy talked earlier this year
about how there's pool shock

724
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,160
chemicals used in a lot of those
products, he came on my Kratom

725
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,280
Gals live stream and was talking
about that with us and we were

726
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,200
just all like, whoa, if you're
using pool shock chemicals and

727
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,840
people don't realize things like
that are happening.

728
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,120
The reason they're using pool
shock is it's a cheap, easy

729
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,800
alternative than buying a pure
lab grade material.

730
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,360
You can go to any pool supply
store and buy it.

731
00:41:07,720 --> 00:41:12,640
And yes, that is being used to
make a lot of the seven hydroxy

732
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,600
that's out there.
There is a guy.

733
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,160
Let me think of his name real
quick.

734
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:20,920
And you like you don't even know
what the long term effects will

735
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,600
be of ingesting these these
products.

736
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:26,880
No, I'm going to, I'm going to
show you because I've been

737
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,640
arguing with the guy for about
two weeks on Facebook or not

738
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:36,960
Facebook, LinkedIn.
His name is Matthew Pierce and

739
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,520
he has videos on YouTube on how
to synthetically make 7 hydroxy.

740
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:45,080
And he he's selling the full SOP
through his website for like 400

741
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,800
bucks.
And he uses he uses ozone and

742
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:50,240
the pull shock material in
there.

743
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,520
And he's sitting there
proclaiming that he's doing the

744
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,600
Lord's work and helping people
relieve pain.

745
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,400
And some of his points are just
mind boggling.

746
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,920
And that's what that's what
we're up against.

747
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,200
And so it goes back to my
question.

748
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,800
When when people sit there and
say, well, I'm using 7

749
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:12,560
hydraulics irresponsibly, are
you explain that to me.

750
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,560
Yeah.
That's you're making such a

751
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,520
great point and there's not like
there's AGMP program for those

752
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:23,880
products and you know.
They can't even identify what

753
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,240
their product is.
They know they know there's 7

754
00:42:27,240 --> 00:42:31,320
hydroxy in there, but they
haven't identified the other 18

755
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,120
compounds that are
unidentifiable.

756
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,400
So how can somebody responsibly
consume that?

757
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,400
Yeah, Yeah, I heard McCurdy
mention that that there, there

758
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,880
there are compounds in it that
they can't identify.

759
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:47,440
But when you say this to people
in the 70 H community, they

760
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:51,680
always have something to counter
say to that every single time.

761
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,120
I don't know if it's just
denial, I don't know.

762
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,960
I mean.
Find the smartest person you can

763
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:02,560
find on 7 hydroxy and want to
sit down and have a respectable

764
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,640
objective discussion under your
mediation about this topic.

765
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,280
Yeah, that would be great.
Final.

766
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,200
Yeah.
I'd be more than happy to have

767
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,640
this tone, this demeanor, this
conversation and ask these

768
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:21,480
questions.
And it's, it comes down to I, I

769
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,560
meet a lot of people that talk
about, well, I, I don't like the

770
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,720
AKA and I'm not going to use
their, their recommended brands

771
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:29,680
or their recommended GMP
vendors.

772
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,200
I buy mine from a responsible
vendor and I always ask them the

773
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,360
same question, what vendor are
you buying it from?

774
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:41,880
And they will never tell me.
Nobody's ever told me who

775
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,280
they're buying it from.
Why do you think that is?

776
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,360
I know why because I'm going to
look at their website.

777
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,760
I'm going to realize real quick,
they're not GMP, they're not

778
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,960
registered, they're not
following any of the basic

779
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,440
safety protocols.
And then how can you sit there

780
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,720
and say that I'm buying from a
legitimate vendor that doesn't

781
00:43:59,720 --> 00:44:03,720
care about anybody's safety?
And also because of our GMP

782
00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:07,760
compliance and us following all
of these protocols, we have real

783
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:12,520
product liability insurance.
That's another thing.

784
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:14,800
Ask your vendor if they have
product liability insurance.

785
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:17,600
Oh, that's a good one.
Yeah, that's good.

786
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,520
That's good to know.
That's good for us consumers to

787
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:21,440
know these things.
That's why it's great getting

788
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,760
like more industry insider
information from someone like

789
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:26,040
Utah because.
This is yeah, I know.

790
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:30,720
I know that when people watch
this podcast, this is going to

791
00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:33,200
be pretty divisive for a lot of
them because I'm pulling out,

792
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,040
I'm I'm bringing up issues a lot
of people don't want to talk

793
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,520
about.
And the people that watch this,

794
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,360
I'd say, you know, 20 to 40% of
the people that watch this

795
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:46,080
aren't going to like what I have
to say. 20 to 40% of the people

796
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,040
out there are going to stand
right by me and agree with

797
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,440
everything I've said.
It's the people in between that

798
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:51,600
I'm really speaking to right
now.

799
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:54,360
Yeah, Yeah.
Well, I mean, it's still at the

800
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,240
end of the day, this is
important educational

801
00:44:56,240 --> 00:44:59,920
information for our community
and it's good for people to to

802
00:44:59,920 --> 00:45:03,160
hear about this.
I appreciate you sharing all

803
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:06,280
this information being so candid
with with all of us.

804
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,240
So thank you so much for doing
that.

805
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:12,040
The truth always comes up and I,
I, I stand by everything I've

806
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:15,040
said.
And if I, if, if I've offended

807
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,880
anybody through listening to
this, that's not my goal.

808
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,080
But don't attack me as a person.
Attack my arguments and we can

809
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:22,880
talk about them.
So.

810
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,440
Yeah.
Attack my points, not me, and we

811
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,400
can figure.
It out right exactly.

812
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,960
Is there anything else you want
to talk about on this podcast

813
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,280
episode today?
We've we've covered a lot of

814
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,000
things in this discussion.
I just want to make sure if

815
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:37,560
there's anything else you wanted
to cover.

816
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,440
I figured we would be talking
about 708 and I appreciate you,

817
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,920
you sharing your, your thoughts
and views and the whole GMP is

818
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,080
it's just, it's good information
for all of us to to know more

819
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:48,440
about.
Yeah.

820
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,240
And I, I do want to make, I make
sure I say this every time I

821
00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:55,000
talk about 7 hydroxy because
part of me is a libertarian.

822
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,360
And the way I look at it, what,
what somebody puts in their body

823
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,640
is none of my business.
What one man does for a living

824
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,120
is none of my business so long
as what they do doesn't affect

825
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,200
me.
And that's where it gets my

826
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,960
attention right now.
We've watched there were 27 or

827
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:16,840
28 either states, counties or
local bands discussed this year,

828
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,040
and that's more than any other
time in history.

829
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,600
And the only thing that's
changed is the proliferation of

830
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,680
seven hydroxy.
And if it wasn't for the

831
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,720
inherent risk that 7 hydroxy was
to regular kratom products, I

832
00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:33,080
wouldn't care.
For example, you'll never see me

833
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:36,640
publicly talk about any
cannabinoid, whether it's

834
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,560
synthetic, whether it's natural,
the THC OS the THC.

835
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,920
PS I don't have a position on
any of that because I don't sell

836
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,840
cannabis, I don't make cannabis,
I don't consume cannabis, so I

837
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,000
stay out of it.
The only reason that 7 hydroxy

838
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,000
has me involved or has an
opinion from me on it is because

839
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,440
it's putting the entire kratom
industry at risk and anybody

840
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,760
that thinks otherwise isn't
paying attention to the details.

841
00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:03,600
It's a great point because I've
been heavily involved in Kream

842
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:07,880
advocacy for about 2 1/2 years
now and it was not like this a

843
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,960
few years ago.
It but what as these 708

844
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:15,200
products got out to the market
more like even a year ago they

845
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,440
were out there, but not at the
level we're seeing right now.

846
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,600
It's not being talked about back
then like it is now.

847
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,720
We're not hearing all these
stories of addiction then versus

848
00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:29,480
what we hear now.
It is just and but we see more

849
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:33,480
and more of these bands cropping
up around the country, like way

850
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:37,040
more than ever.
Why don't, I'll put it, I'll

851
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:41,640
give you a bounty, I'll give you
5 grand cash and I mean it if

852
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:46,560
you can get Vince Sanders and
I'll give you his number if you

853
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,280
can get him on this podcast with
me.

854
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:53,080
That would be very interesting.
I would actually love to hear

855
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:54,560
the two of y'all talk together.
That would be.

856
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:55,560
Cool.
Yeah, Lawrence.

857
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,040
Whatever happened to Lawrence?
The guy from the Kratom Advocate

858
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:00,400
podcast.
I don't know.

859
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,480
I I like all of a sudden the
podcast stopped.

860
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:05,680
So I don't know.
OK, yeah, he was.

861
00:48:05,720 --> 00:48:08,360
He was trying to arrange that
sit down and wasn't successful

862
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:10,840
at it.
But yeah, I'll sit there and

863
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:13,320
debate the science and the facts
and the regulatory landscape

864
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:17,880
with anybody.
Yeah, that I mean that just I

865
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,040
don't need a bounty for that.
I mean I think that's just would

866
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,200
be interesting to hear y'all too
have a discussion like that.

867
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:27,800
Yeah, and I will be 100%
professional and objective

868
00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:30,080
throughout the entire
conversation.

869
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,080
We're going to talk about the
science and the regulatory

870
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:37,480
landscape and the facts.
Yeah, yeah, I, I would

871
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,800
definitely love to facilitate a
conversation with both sides,

872
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,440
you know, of this, of this
conversation, because I think

873
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:47,880
there's just so many of us that
are in the middle of this and

874
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,360
we're just trying to have more
understanding and awareness to

875
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,600
just know more about all of
this.

876
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,920
Even though I don't consume 70 H
personally, but I do talk to

877
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,480
people who tell me that they're,
you know, and I understand

878
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:03,440
everything you've said.
That makes perfect sense.

879
00:49:04,720 --> 00:49:09,440
I'm just trying to show
compassion for people who are

880
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,440
like, I, this is something
that's helping me.

881
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,320
I'm also showing compassion to
the people that have been harmed

882
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:17,840
by it because there's been so
many people in my DMS.

883
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,000
They're like, I discovered this,
this 70 H.

884
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,840
I didn't really understand it.
I got addicted.

885
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:25,640
I can't stop.
I don't know how to stop.

886
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:27,160
I need help.
And they see that.

887
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:31,440
I make videos trying to educate
people, you know, kratom versus

888
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:33,720
708.
And so they, so many people come

889
00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:36,400
to me and I just, I hate seeing
so many people get caught up in

890
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,400
the middle of all of this.
Yeah, so do I.

891
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,600
I think it's going to end bad
and I'm looking forward to this

892
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:44,200
chapter closing and let's moving
on.

893
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,120
Yeah.
But but I think it just takes

894
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,840
more of these kinds of
discussions and I would love to

895
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:53,440
see more of like both sides
talking it out and letting us,

896
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,880
the community, be a part of it
so we can have better

897
00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,680
understanding and hear both
sides of it.

898
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:03,520
Well, it all goes back to
following the existing

899
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:07,800
regulatory framework that is in
existence on how to bring a

900
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:12,920
product to market.
If I did it, I don't think I'm

901
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:14,520
that much smarter than everybody
else.

902
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:18,160
If I can follow the law, if I
can do all this stuff, why can't

903
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,520
the other companies?
Right.

904
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:27,200
I mean, I didn't start off
managing, you know, 120,000

905
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:28,800
square feet of manufacturing
facility.

906
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:32,600
I didn't, I started off where I
had A and the desk is still

907
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,320
here.
I bought a $30 desk from IKEA.

908
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:37,360
I had my cell phone and a
laptop.

909
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:40,480
I would be making phone calls
throughout the day.

910
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:45,600
I would then stop and I would
personally formulate the product

911
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,600
and I would pass it off to two
employees and they would bottle

912
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:53,200
it and ship it out.
And we did that until I was able

913
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,160
to train one of them to
formulate without me.

914
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:58,280
And then we just kind of
organically grew from there.

915
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,520
Now here it is going on.
Four years later and hundreds of

916
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,720
employees later, here we are.
That's amazing.

917
00:51:04,720 --> 00:51:07,400
That's, that's, that's awesome,
yeah.

918
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:10,040
So anyway, I appreciate you
having me on.

919
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:12,800
Yeah, Thank you so much, Todd.
This has just been a great

920
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,240
conversation.
I would definitely love to have

921
00:51:15,240 --> 00:51:18,360
more, more discussions with you
in our community.

922
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:20,640
So I'll, I'll definitely work on
that and get back to you all.

923
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:22,480
Right.
Well, I appreciate your day.

924
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:23,320
Have a good day.