Ep 83: From Advocacy to Action: Jordan Richard’s Fight to Protect Kratom from 7OH

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My, my biggest concern is
educating people on the

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differences.
And I just hate that 7 hydroxy

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has muddied the waters.
We, we made such amazing

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progress for years and years and
years.

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I've been on the front lines
since, gosh, 2014, maybe even a

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little bit sooner, just just
trying to keep kratom legal.

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And we made such strides.
And then it's like this 7

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hydroxy just comes in like a
tornado and rips up everything

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that we've, we fought for.
I mean, there, there is some

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wins though, you know, the FDA
saying that they can, they, they

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know the difference between
normal kratom and, and seven

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hydroxy.
So it's always going to be a

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fight.
So I'm here with Jordan Richard

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from New Hope Botanicals, one of
my favorite kratom vendors.

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And you've been on the podcast.
I'm going to link to that.

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So people can, you know, if they
haven't heard your story, they

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can check it out.
It was almost two years ago when

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I had you on already.
But I know, and for those that

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don't know Jordan, he's a fierce
kratom advocate.

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Super excited to welcome you
back, Jordan, to the podcast.

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I wanted to bring you on because
so much has gone on in these

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last few years since you were on
the podcast in terms of seven,

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OH, it's like, first it was
kratom powder and extracts, and

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we don't hear about extracts
anymore.

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All we hear about is 7.
OH, and you've been like a real

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crusader, educating people,
going to hearings all around

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California, calling in on the
Zoom ones around other parts of

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the country.
I mean, you're just doing so

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much to help our leaf.
So I just wanted to have a chat

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with you and have you update us
on like what what's happening

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and maybe we want to start
first.

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Somebody that doesn't even know
what 70 H is.

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There's still a lot of
confusion.

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How do you explain the people
the difference between leaf

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kratom and 7OH?
Sure, yeah.

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And and I think before I get
into that, people need to

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understand the biology of a
kratom leaf and why it's called

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7 hydroxymetrazine.
So 70 is not present within the

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actual leaf itself.
It is a post harvest metabolite.

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So when you pick off when I was
in Indonesian, I picked the leaf

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off the tree that there are 07
hydroxy in there.

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However, these leaves need to be
dried to turn into a powder to

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ship here to America.
During that drying process due

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to oxidation, like miniscule
amounts of metrogenine, kratom's

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main alkaloid.
Think think of metrogenine to

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kratom as like caffeine to
coffee.

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It's what makes the plants it.
Those are the main alkaloids

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that make the plant what it is
basically.

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But due to oxidation,
microscopic amounts of

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metrogenine are converted into
seven hydroxy.

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But tragedy.
But it's typically less than

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0.0010% like it.
It's so small and so it is in

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the dry powder, but it's not
within the leaf itself.

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So 7 hydroxy is an extremely
powerful metabolite.

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And what these companies do
though is they will take a

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kratom extract.
And we have to remember kratom,

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normal kratom extracts, and
seven hydroxy are three

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completely separate things.
The only thing that I would

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consider like real kratom is
either fresh kratom leaves or

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dried kratom powder.
Think of that like coffee.

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Then you have the metrogenine
extracts.

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That's like a, that's like a
caffeine pill, you know, So what

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they'll do is they'll take a
metrogenine extract and then

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they'll chemically convert it
into 7 hydroxy and seven hydroxy

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is incredibly powerful.
It could be beneficial to to

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some people but the vast
majority of people who are using

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it, their lives are in shambles.
I always tell people the best

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way out of addiction is kratom.
A lot of people go into 7

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hydroxy though, thinking it's a
way out of addiction, but it's a

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way into addiction.
Not not to say that it can't be

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beneficial for a small number of
people, but the vast majority of

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people who take normal kratom
say it's improved their life.

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And the vast majority of people
I speak to taking 7 hydroxy

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saying that it's hindering their
life for sure.

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You're getting something that is
completely natural like kratom

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compared to something that is
used made.

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Some people say that they use
pool chemicals to chemically,

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chemically convert.
That's what Doctor Chris McCurdy

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said when when when I
interviewed him.

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The scariest thing, though,
about 7 Hydroxy 1 is the way

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that they market it.
A lot of these manufacturers

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don't give a crap about kratom.
They'll make it look like a perk

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30 or they'll make it look like
lean.

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They make it look like Xanax
bars and stuff like that, but

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they're calling it kratom, which
is scary.

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Like the amount comparing 180
milligram tablet of seven OH

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compared to the amount of seven
hydroxy that is found in powder

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is roughly 6000 times stronger.
Like the the the amount.

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It's crazy it would take and a
lot of people think that it's a

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kratom extract but it's actually
impossible.

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There's not enough 7 hydroxy
available in the powder to

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extract it.
It has to be chemically

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converted.
It would take pounds and pounds

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and pounds and pounds the raw
material to make one tablet of

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seven hydroxy.
The cost of the raw powder would

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cost way more than what you buy
the whole pack of, you know, 7

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hydroxy for.
So it's, it's really muddied the

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waters a lot.
It's made my job way, way, way

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harder.
It, it, it could be great if it

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went through the, the drug
approval process, but you know,

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that takes 10 years and a
billion dollars to bring a new

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drug to market.
You know, these manufacturers

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would just like would rather
make millions and millions right

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now.
What what really gets me upset

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about 7 hydroxy is so many
people were doing amazing on

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normal Kratom and then the smoke
shop give them a free sample

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saying, oh, it's kratom but
better and their lives are in

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shamble. 7 Hydroxy is not
innovation, it's deception that

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that's the best way I can
explain it.

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That's a great way of putting it
because I know you get inundated

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with people reaching out to you,
asking questions, asking for

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help.
I send a lot of people to you

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because I get so many people in
my DMS or just in my TikTok

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comments that tell me stories of
like, like what you're saying

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consuming Kratom no issues is
helping them.

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And then they were given a free
sample at the smoke shop or told

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it's just stronger Kratom and
not understanding exactly what

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it is.
And so many people have gotten

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hooked on it just from getting
that and, and liking it and

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like, I want more and going back
to old habits and it's, it's

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terrible.
The, the problems people have

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had because of it is.
Yeah, exactly.

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And you know, kratom, the actual
plant, it isn't an opioid by by

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definition.
It affects many different parts

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of the brain such as
serotonergic, dopaminergic,

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androgenergic.
But the way I the, the way that

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7 hydroxy is being sold is an
opioid.

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And and I know that's a scary
word.

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I mean, opioids have helped a
lot of people for a long time.

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But you know, under the
controlled substances Act, yeah,

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7 hydroxy is going to be
scheduled for sure.

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It meets all the criteria.
Well, normal kratom doesn't.

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I think that's a another
conversation with it in itself.

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You know, I think a lot of us
kratom advocates and vendors, we

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are not prohibitionists
whatsoever, but we also have to

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do what's necessary to protect
the plant itself.

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You know, like my fight is
always for kratom and the only

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time you'll hear me say 7
hydroxy needs to be banned is

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when kratom's on the chopping
block.

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I'll throw 7 hydroxy under the
bus again.

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My, my biggest concern is
educating people on the

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differences.
And I just hate that 7 hydroxy

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has muddied the waters.
We, we made such amazing

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progress for years and years and
years.

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I've been on the front lines
since, gosh, 2014, maybe even a

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little bit sooner, just trying
to keep kratom legal and we made

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such strides.
And then it's like this 7

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hydroxy just comes in like a
tornado and rips up everything

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that we've, we fought for.
I mean, there, there is some

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wins though.
You know, the FDA saying that

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they can, they, they know the
difference between normal kratom

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and, and seven hydroxy.
So it's always going to be a

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fight.
Yeah, for sure.

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Well, it was pretty amazing
several months back when the FDA

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made the announcement that they
were targeting 7.

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OH, they wanted to be scheduled
one.

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They requested the DEA and that
powder was fine, but nothing's

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happened with the DEA.
What's your thought on that?

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I thought things would go into
motion a lot quicker.

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Oh no.
So in 2016, kratom was going to

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be banned and we had third 30
days because that was an

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emergency scheduling.
So they're allowed to do that.

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The DEA is allowed to do an
emergency scheduling if HHS says

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so.
But basically that doesn't make

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the substance like illegal, but
it's schedule one for two years.

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But when it comes to the actual
review process, it takes time.

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It can take 6 months, it can
take like a year.

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There's a lot of legal
frameworks.

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And I've been blessed to know a
lot about the behind the scenes

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of it because I've become
decently good friends with Jim

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Carroll, who's the former drug
czar of the United States.

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And I through my documentaries
and like writing my book and

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stuff, I've got to talk to a lot
of politicians and see how it

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actually works.
Like, cuz you think like, oh,

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they said it's going to be
legal.

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So it's going to happen
tomorrow, you know, but there is

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a, there's a huge process.
But like Florida banned 7

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hydroxy overnight basically cuz
it was their emergency

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scheduling.
So yeah, it takes time.

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I would say in the next six
months to like a year that it

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will happen.
And the time, right now is the

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time to educate people on the
difference and help people off

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the seven hydroxy that that want
to get off of it, you know?

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Yeah, it's so interesting how
government works because just

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like you were saying, Florida
does the the emergency schedule

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and literally said midnight
tonight, we're taking it off the

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shelves and just threw everybody
off guard because we didn't know

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nobody saw that coming yet.
The federal government is like,

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we're requesting the DEA do this
for the DEAI don't understand

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the legal frameworks and all
that is.

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It's just interesting how
government can, like, do some

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things and then do other things.
Yeah, sometimes fast, sometimes

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slow.
You just never know.

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And both are are wrong too.
You know, it's not a very good

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idea for Florida to ban such a
powerful substance overnight,

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you know, but also too like the
federal government, like, do you

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really want to again, do you
want to drag it out for this

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long?
You know, you have to give

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people time to prepare.
And unfortunately, that's the

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world that we live in.
Things are going to get banned.

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Things are that's how the
government sees it.

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It's either right, regulation or
or prohibition.

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Those are the two choices.
And and I get that a lot from

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people because I'm trying to do
a lot of work here in

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California.
People are like, oh, you're just

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getting it.
The government, you know,

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they're going to get their
money.

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It's like, well, I'd rather them
get their money then people not

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have access to to kratom.
We have two choices.

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It's prohibition or regulation.
Those are the two options when

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it comes to Kratom.
Yeah, yeah.

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So a lot's been going on in
California.

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You've been doing a great job of
updating your community through

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your e-mail newsletters.
And I saw one that you sent out

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today saying California kratom
bombshell updates and you're

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talking about the things going
on there, the Narcotics Board

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and tell us a little bit about
what's happening there Because

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it sounded like all of a sudden
in California, they're going to

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ban all kratom.
And now you're talking about

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like it sounds like 70 being
banned, but not the powder, not

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the leaf.
Yeah, so it's it's actually very

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confusing.
So out of nowhere, the

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California Department of Health
declared kratom legal, not the

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plant itself, but they're saying
the way it's being sold, you

225
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,880
can't sell kratom as a drug.
That makes sense because the FDA

226
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,480
approved you have to go through
a huge process, but you also

227
00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,520
can't sell it as a food or you
can't sell it as like a

228
00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:01,840
supplement, basically.
So what category do you have

229
00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,640
besides its own ping?
So that they're trying to like

230
00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,080
muddy the waters, that gives
them the the right to seize

231
00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,760
products, gives them the right
to raid smoke shops and

232
00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,080
everything.
Well, in their minds it does.

233
00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,040
And whenever they're raiding
people, they're giving them a

234
00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,480
paper from the FDA's old
verbiage on their website

235
00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,480
basically saying that it's
illegal to this is basically

236
00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,960
illegal in their eyes, even
though there's no, there's no

237
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:30,560
law on the books backing that
up.

238
00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:33,800
Like right now, it's just words
and it's they're going around

239
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,480
raiding people.
It's not systematically, it's

240
00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,040
Willy nilly.
Basically.

241
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:42,560
There's been a, a few raids and
it's just the people that have

242
00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:45,920
been raided actually can sue
back because there's no

243
00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,040
justification.
They're not citing any sort of

244
00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:53,440
laws whatsoever.
But when I went to testify in

245
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,880
Irvine, CA, the lady that was
trying to ban kratom, the city

246
00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,400
Councilwoman, she called for
like an expert witness.

247
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,080
And there's a guy from the, the
California Narcotics Board.

248
00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,840
And I'm sitting there and I'm,
I'm sweating like, Oh my God,

249
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,720
this is going to be so bad.
Like I know this is going to go

250
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:11,920
horrible.
And then this guy starts talking

251
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,840
and it's like, Oh my God, like
this dude really knows what he's

252
00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,960
talking about.
So he's been doing like a lot of

253
00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:22,320
work and I've befriended him and
you know, we've become good

254
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,200
friends talking almost every
single day.

255
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:29,280
And he wrote a bill called AAB
1088 where it's regulating

256
00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,320
normal kratom and banning 7
hydroxy.

257
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,440
And I've been to so many
different meetings all across

258
00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,600
Southern California and we're
like 6 for six or five for #5

259
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,600
every single one that was going
to ban kratom ended up

260
00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,880
regulating normal kratom and
banning 7 hydroxy.

261
00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,120
The health board is their own
thing.

262
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:54,120
You know, basically what we need
to do now is get the FDA to

263
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,440
change the verbiage on their
website.

264
00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,240
Then this basically kind of goes
away.

265
00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,280
At least that's what the guy
from the narcotics board was

266
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,680
what what was telling us.
We're still fully operational.

267
00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,800
Nothing has changed.
The birds are still the sun's

268
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,000
still shining, but you know, at
any moment things can can

269
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,280
happen.
And overall I I don't know if

270
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:20,760
kratom itself will ever become
legal and illegal in California.

271
00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,720
And I think every state is
extremely important to keep

272
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:28,120
kratom legal in 100%.
But California could be the most

273
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:33,120
important one is because the
port like basically all kratom

274
00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,440
coming into the United States
all comes from the port of San

275
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,200
Francisco.
All of it.

276
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,720
So you like you're shutting down
access to the the rest of the

277
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,840
country also too, for better,
for worse, what typically starts

278
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,360
in California spreads to the
rest of the country.

279
00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,400
You know, a lot of times it
starts in California and there's

280
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,720
so many.
We have more creative consumers

281
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,880
here than any other state too,
because there's so many more

282
00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,400
people, obviously.
So California is a very, very

283
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,760
important state.
As of right now, though, the

284
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,480
health board is, is still rogue.
But we've had so many like

285
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:12,760
victories, so many back-to-back,
gosh, my said are so bad right

286
00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,720
now.
Riverside and Laguna Niguel,

287
00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:21,560
Irvine, every single place has
decided to regulate kratom and

288
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:27,520
ban 7 hydroxy.
And if AB1088 passes, then it's

289
00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,480
like the framework of the
Creative Consumer Protection

290
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:31,920
Act, but it's not the same
thing.

291
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,280
I actually introduced the
gentleman from the Narcotics

292
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:39,760
Board to Mac Haddo from the AKA.
So they've been like kind of

293
00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:41,600
talking now, which is a
blessing.

294
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,600
But you know, I looked at the
regulations and it seems fair.

295
00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,680
It seems like it's good ret
regulation set setting.

296
00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,840
Obviously you can't sell the
kids 20.

297
00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:53,720
You can't sell to someone under
21.

298
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:59,320
You can't flashy packaging also
too, like the total content of

299
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,200
seven hydroxy can't be more than
2% of the total leaf.

300
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,480
Like it's all common sense
stuff, which was really cool

301
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,960
because I've seen some
regulations that were not good,

302
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:10,960
you know, So that's.
Good.

303
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:13,280
Yeah.
Well, it seems like California

304
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,280
has really been under attack.
You've been speaking in person

305
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,079
at a lot of different hearings
throughout the state more

306
00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:21,440
recently.
And then just like in Illinois,

307
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,000
they've been under attack with
all those different suburbs of

308
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,839
Chicago trying to ban kratom.
And then Massachusetts.

309
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,880
It's interesting how there's
these specific states where it

310
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,600
seems like there's this
coordinated effort to get kratom

311
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,680
banned.
I think it'd be a domino effect

312
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:38,240
like what you're talking about
if something happened with

313
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,040
California and you know, it
almost happened here in Texas

314
00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,280
where I live earlier this year,
they tried to ban it all.

315
00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,560
And like I can see like that
domino effect, you get one or

316
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,440
two big States and then others
will use that to follow suit.

317
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,280
And, and, but it takes people
advocating and you've done an

318
00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,480
amazing job getting out there
and talking and sharing your

319
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,760
personal story and how kratom
helps you.

320
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:02,120
Thank you.
Yeah.

321
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:04,680
The scariest thing about
California is the port, you

322
00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,640
know, like everything pretty
much goes through through San

323
00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:10,360
Francisco.
But yeah, I was happy.

324
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,600
What did they end up doing in
Texas, though?

325
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,040
It's.
Kind of so earlier this year in

326
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,560
Texas, what they wanted to do
and they were doing it in

327
00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,280
Florida too, but they did both
of these and end up not passing.

328
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,400
They were trying.
They were targeting seven O 8.

329
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,120
And we have a KCPA.
But the senator that brought the

330
00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:32,560
ban said on publicly when he,
you know, was presenting this,

331
00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,640
that powder was fine.
It was a seven O 8.

332
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,760
But he said we're just going to
ban it all.

333
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,920
And that was very concerning
that that's the stance they want

334
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:47,240
to take is when we have a KCPA,
all they got to do is enforce it

335
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,000
and then we wouldn't have 70 H
on the shelves.

336
00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,240
But they're not, they admitted
they're not enforcing it.

337
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,080
So they just figured, let's just
ban it all.

338
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,840
And luckily, I mean, it did go
through the Senate in Texas, but

339
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,120
luckily it died in a House
committee.

340
00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:05,640
And so it didn't go any further.
But it's scary that you can have

341
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,320
one representative in the state
bring this up and get the wheels

342
00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:13,880
in motion and and publicly say
leaf powder's fine, but we want

343
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,760
it all banned because it's just
easier for them and that's

344
00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:18,920
scary.
Yeah, that, that that's very

345
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,520
scary.
Sensible regulation and all that

346
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,600
prohibition are two very
different things.

347
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,280
It's like, heaven forbid you
have to do your job, you know?

348
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,840
But to have a KCPA already
established it makes no sense to

349
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,040
me.
Like if they just enforced it

350
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,440
and, and I mean I don't
understand and how all that goes

351
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,560
into motion, but when they
enforce AKCPA, there's like

352
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,560
what, 18 of them around the
country now, 18 states that have

353
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:44,080
an adopt. 17 or 18?
Yeah.

354
00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:47,680
Yeah, the Kratom Consumer
Protection Act, my understanding

355
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,640
is when they a state adopts
that, they've got to already

356
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:53,960
figure out like what's the
funding going to be, how they're

357
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,400
going to enforce it.
I mean, in that part of how they

358
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,280
do it behind the scenes, Like
you don't just approve it

359
00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,240
statewide without a plan.
Of how you would enforce it and

360
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,800
pay for it.
So obviously Texas have got has

361
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,640
got to have some kind of plan to
enforce and money to pay for it,

362
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,320
but nothing ever happened and
they would just rather ban.

363
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,960
So The thing is we got two years
until they'll start over with it

364
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,440
in Texas.
So that gives me and my Texas

365
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,520
advocates time to like, you
know, be talking to as many

366
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,640
people as possible and helping
people understand there's a

367
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,280
difference and regulation is the
way to go.

368
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:36,000
Yeah, and education is key.
When we were in when I met you

369
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,480
in Washington, DC, there's a a
gentleman, former New York City

370
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,480
Senator David Carlucci.
And he's from New York.

371
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:48,720
And he, he was saying like how
he proposed a bill to to ban

372
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,480
kratom.
And then so many people started

373
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,960
writing in that he like took a
step back and was like, wow, you

374
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:56,680
know, like that maybe I was
wrong.

375
00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:01,680
And then he proposed legislation
that he he proposed the Kratom

376
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,440
Super Protection Act, you know,
the guy that was wanting it

377
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,760
gone.
You know, people can do a huge

378
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,240
radical 180.
Even the guy from the the

379
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,040
narcotics board here in
California is like, you know, us

380
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,360
as narcotic officers, we just
want to ban everything.

381
00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:17,880
He goes.
I'm not a creative advocate, but

382
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,840
like, I'm pro truth too, which
was really cool.

383
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:26,760
And so, yeah, people in in high
places can definitely help out.

384
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,920
When I interviewed Doctor Jack
Henningfield, he said something

385
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,920
to me that I'll never forget.
He goes, you know, the FDA is

386
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:34,800
the best in the world at what
they do.

387
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,360
They're like, I really think
that he says, I really think

388
00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:39,680
that they're going to figure out
this whole kratom thing over

389
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:41,080
time.
He goes the vast majority of

390
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,840
people at the FDA, they're just
trying to do the best they they

391
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:45,120
can.
And to be honest, I didn't

392
00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:47,000
believe him at the time.
So I was like, oh, it's all big

393
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:51,360
pharma government stuff, you
know, But the way the FDA has

394
00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:55,080
shifted has, is pretty
incredible that a lot of these

395
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:59,760
people, they're just uneducated.
And once the facts come out,

396
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,640
they tend to side with us.
And education is such a, a, a

397
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,280
crucial, crucial thing,
especially the people in

398
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:11,720
powerful positions like you, the
people in Louisiana, the Senator

399
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,840
Jim Morris or whatever his name
was, you know, these people,

400
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,400
they're trying to educate them
and they just wouldn't listen.

401
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:23,040
So the the the more we educate
now, the the better basically.

402
00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:26,080
Absolutely.
But it would be helpful if the

403
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:31,560
FDA would officially publish the
results of the single dose study

404
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:36,320
they did several years ago
because like that right there

405
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,360
contradicts everything that's
currently on their website about

406
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,120
freedom not being safe.
And we don't recommend it.

407
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:45,800
And then it be their statements
on their website being used

408
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,520
against us so many times with
this, these hearings.

409
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,680
But it's like people don't even
realize there was a single dose

410
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,240
study that the FDA did, you
know, feeding a lot of capsules,

411
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,400
12 grams in a 5 minute period.
Nobody died, nobody got ill, no

412
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:00,960
issues.
You know, some nausea, which

413
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,960
would be expected if I took that
many capsules, you know, 12

414
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,280
grams of capsules in 5 minutes.
I would be feeling so hot just

415
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,960
because of that many capsule
shells sitting in your stomach,

416
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:11,240
you know?
Yeah.

417
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,760
And when I interviewed Doctor
Chris McCurdy, he said that he

418
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,920
was going to be helped.
He was going to help lead the

419
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,080
human trials that the FDA is
funding.

420
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:23,320
That's a radical difference than
what it was when we were

421
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:29,400
fighting in 2016 two 1017, you
know, and this, this FDA seems

422
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,920
much more lenient towards kratom
than what we had with Doctor

423
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,600
Scott Gottlieb That, that that
was the hardest time for kratom

424
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,360
ever by far.
Oh, he was something else.

425
00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:43,000
Oh my God, that boy.
He sure was out to get kratom

426
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,800
banned.
It's it's wild seeing that.

427
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,600
You know how in 2016 how hard
they all tried to get it banned

428
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:51,880
and it was close to getting
banned.

429
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,520
It didn't happen.
And they, it did seem like

430
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,560
things got better and better
over time until the whole 708

431
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,240
thing started a few years ago.
But really, like in the past

432
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,600
year, that's when I started
getting contacted left and right

433
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,160
by people having issues with 708
and literally telling me they

434
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,880
can't stop they people.
And I know you hear these

435
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,400
stories way more than I do, but
so many people sending me

436
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,600
because they'd see me depending
on TikTok videos educating like

437
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,760
you do like educating people and
you know, 7 O age and what's the

438
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,440
difference between that and
regular kratom and just talking

439
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,480
about it.
And people will come into my DMS

440
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:30,840
and say I I got duped.
I I've always been a productive

441
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,240
member of society.
I have a family, I have a job

442
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,320
and I can't do any like this
thing has me so messed up.

443
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,320
I can't even take care of my
family.

444
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:39,600
I'm worried about getting
divorced.

445
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,000
I can't keep a job like
horrendous things that these

446
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,600
people are going through from
something that they all said,

447
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,000
they all took responsibility on
what none of these people that

448
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,280
reached out to me said, you
know, you get that anonymous

449
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,680
people in the comments, they'll
say it's kratom's fault, it's

450
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,640
your fault.
But the people that are coming

451
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,600
into our DMS that they all told
me like, it's my fault.

452
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,080
I should have understood what I
was taking.

453
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,640
I should have researched, but I
just need help and I just can't

454
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,560
get out of this cycle.
Yeah, it's just heartbreaking.

455
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,440
Yeah, everyone deserves
something.

456
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,600
They, they, they deserve
informed consent.

457
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,680
That's the big, if you tell
people the pros and cons of

458
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,720
seven hydroxy and they decide
to, to, to do it and can use it

459
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,600
responsibly, hey, that's a
blessing for them.

460
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,520
It's just the fact that all
these people have been lied to

461
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,760
like crazy.
I, I, I don't know if you see

462
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,560
the Facebook ads of like people
at parties like 07 hydroxy is so

463
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:41,960
fun, 100% pure botanicals, you
know, or they'll put like, like

464
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,160
billboards up saying 3 samples
of seven hydroxy, like ready to

465
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,800
feel better, like you as like a
kratom vendor.

466
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,240
We're gatekeepers.
There's a lot of people that

467
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,880
come into my store that try to
buy Kratom, but we were like, I

468
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,360
don't think this is a good fit
for you.

469
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:04,880
You know, you, you want people
to have a problem and they they

470
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,880
found Kratom on their own.
They were looking up for a

471
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,400
solution to their problem, which
led them to kratom, which led

472
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,240
them to you.
But the seven hydroxy people do

473
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,640
the exact opposite.
They're just throwing it out to

474
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,520
the general public like, oh,
here, take this, take this, take

475
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:25,120
this, like that is so wrong.
You know, like this Kratom is

476
00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:29,480
such a blessing for the people
that need it.

477
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,200
You know, it's, it's so
respected in Southeast Asia.

478
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,680
And a lot of the reason why
we're in this situation we are

479
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:41,920
now is because of the public
perception that 7 hydroxy has

480
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,480
caused and everyone calling it
kratom.

481
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,360
That's just the it's a hard
battle that that we as advocates

482
00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:52,240
have to fight every single day.
Well, there's so many shady

483
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,160
companies, you know these seven
OH companies that like very

484
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,320
shady ones out there.
So there there's a company that

485
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,600
stole some of my TikTok videos
talking about kratom.

486
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,480
Just hold my whole leaf Kratom
powder stole them put up.

487
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,160
Use them as Facebook ads to get
people to come get free 7 OH

488
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,360
watch.
Yeah, that is insane.

489
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,080
And it took a while for
Facebook.

490
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,920
Facebook took one of them down.
I don't think they took them all

491
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,120
down.
And it's just like, how sleazy

492
00:27:22,120 --> 00:27:24,920
is that?
So they're playing my videos of

493
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:29,800
me talking positive about whole
leaf kratom powder, but they're

494
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,640
being duped into like it's you.
Know thinking it's it's crazy.

495
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,880
708 yeah takes them to this web
page.

496
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:40,000
It's it's shady as hell.
Wow I don't understand like we

497
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,720
can't even say the word kratom
on Facebook anymore, yet people

498
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:48,440
can buy ads for 70 H products
and just plaster it all over

499
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,320
Facebook.
I just got my Facebook account

500
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,400
ban today and like I logged in
and says your account is

501
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,720
permanently disabled.
And then I like appealed it and

502
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,040
they gave me my account back.
But like I told, I told Mark

503
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,960
Zuckerberg that I'm right.
I'm right in the the wheels off

504
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:07,680
this thing.
I'm going to keep posting it

505
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,840
like that's just how I feel.
I'll just start a new one I I

506
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,240
guess.
But yeah, it's like these people

507
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,040
can run ads no problem, but we
can't even say the word.

508
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,400
It's ridiculous.
I all the social media platforms

509
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,680
have have really gotten out of
control with with censoring us

510
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:31,280
talking about kratom TikTok is
really bad and Facebook has

511
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,920
really been out of control and
even YouTube I'm having issues

512
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:35,880
with YouTube.
I was in YouTube jail last week

513
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,280
and I wasn't able to put up any
videos or my kratom gals live

514
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,160
stream for like one whole week
because of the video they didn't

515
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,360
like and put a strike on my
account and told me I'm

516
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,120
basically in a time out for a
whole week.

517
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,240
And it's just we're talking
about a plant and educating

518
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,520
people.
That's all we do, you know, and

519
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,560
it's it's incredibly
frustrating, but I know that's

520
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,080
not going to stop you from
educating and advocating.

521
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:02,600
It doesn't stop me from doing
it.

522
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,720
I think it's incredibly
important what we do helping

523
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,880
people big and, and I wish there
was more of that out there

524
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,600
because people desperately, you
know, need to know more about

525
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,560
this, you know, what, what are
these things and just getting

526
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,200
the facts.
And so you've been working on a

527
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,160
documentary the last couple of
years.

528
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,400
And so like you were saying
before, you've been talking to

529
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,720
like all the experts, you've
gone to Indonesia, you put out,

530
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,960
you know, some clips of various
things.

531
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,920
What's it been like making a
documentary about Kratom?

532
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,680
I'm I'm sure that's been really
interesting.

533
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,040
Stressful.
That's probably the best thing I

534
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,360
can explain it, but also very
humbling as well.

535
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,760
You know, I broke down and cried
a few times, one out of

536
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:51,080
frustration and others out of
like joy because of like when I

537
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,480
after I interviewed doctor Jack
Henningfield, who's just like

538
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,480
world renowned addiction expert,
like I just went back to the

539
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,920
hotel room and I cried because
of like how far I came.

540
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,360
You know, there's a point where
I overdosed twice in one week.

541
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,240
You know, how that gunpoint by
going on low speed chases from

542
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:13,000
the cops, you know, and to like
now sitting there in like a suit

543
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,200
and tie interviewing one of the
most respected addiction

544
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:21,200
scientists basically ever was a
big moment for for me, you know,

545
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,560
so proud.
But also time like, gosh, this

546
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,240
is such a huge ordeal.
I keep thinking it's going to be

547
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,320
way easier than it is, but it's
not.

548
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,080
There's hours and hours and
hours and like I'm going to

549
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:37,280
Thailand in February, you know,
trying to set up all these

550
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,320
interviews with kratom
historians and the it's just,

551
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,240
it's so many missing, not
missing pieces, but like

552
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,640
connecting pieces.
It's like putting a puzzle

553
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,520
together and all I can do is
just go one day at a time and

554
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,040
hopefully just get it done as
soon as possible.

555
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,440
It's just a lot of work,
especially with like 2-2 guys

556
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,720
and you know, it's hard.
Well, y'all are very passionate

557
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,040
about it, which is awesome.
And when we were hanging out in

558
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,760
DC a few years ago, I love that
y'all are just doing a lot of

559
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,760
filming and interviewing people
and, you know, putting this

560
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,640
together.
I know it's a lot of work doing

561
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,440
a documentary and it takes a
long time.

562
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,400
Like it's, you know, I know a
lot of people are always asking

563
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,640
you in the comments when
whenever you show clips, like

564
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,000
when is the documentary coming
out?

565
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:25,480
But it's, it's a lot to do.
But it's but it's like the the

566
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,000
level at which all are doing
this is amazing.

567
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,400
And I can't wait till it comes
out.

568
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,520
So that way, you know, more
education to help people.

569
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,360
We need more documentaries about
kratom.

570
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,240
Yeah, I remember I was getting
kind of down on myself was how

571
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,200
how long it was taking US.
And then I remember that Leap of

572
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,360
Faith had like a full production
crew and that took like 4 years

573
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,520
for them to, I mean, it took
years.

574
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,680
So I'm like, OK, maybe I'm not
as bad as I think we're not

575
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,120
getting.
No, I think y'all are right on

576
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,240
track because you're doing like,
it's not like it's a really

577
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:57,760
narrow scope.
I mean, you've been to

578
00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,480
Indonesia, now you're going to
Thailand.

579
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,840
You've been interviewing all the
top kratom scientists and

580
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,240
experts.
It's a process, you know.

581
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,120
It takes time to do.
All that for sure.

582
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,880
And, and you know, funding to
like, I've had to, we're blessed

583
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,120
to raise like 6 grand, which was
a, a huge help, but I've, I've

584
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,760
also funded the vast majority of
it myself.

585
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,120
So I had to do it like in
chunks, you know, like, and, you

586
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,240
know, save up, then do it, save
up, then do it.

587
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,640
So again, this is no one's
responsibility besides my own

588
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,800
to, to, to get it done.
But the, the community did help

589
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,400
a tremendous amount and I'm
just, I'm very grateful for

590
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,080
that.
But again, I have to, I started

591
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,240
and I got to make sure it gets
done as soon as possible, but I

592
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,880
have to make sure it's the best
as possible to I I don't want to

593
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,560
throw something together that's
like super just like Willy

594
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,000
nilly.
Right.

595
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,040
Oh, I know it'll be great once
it comes out and you've written

596
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,400
a book, a kratom book.
Tell us a little bit about that.

597
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,320
Yeah, so basically it's called
the truth about kratom.

598
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,600
Life saving plant or botanical
menace.

599
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,320
And it took me about 2 1/2 years
to to write.

600
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,320
I was kind of like just, you
know, dabbling, putting down my

601
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,720
thoughts.
And then after I got back from

602
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,920
Indonesia, I was like, OK, I
really need to like finish this.

603
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:18,520
Like so I just sat down for
literally gosh, 4 1/2 months and

604
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,800
that's all I did all day, every
day, like 1213 hours.

605
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:26,400
My was affecting my marriage.
Like it was like I got so I was

606
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,120
so hyper focused on it like all
the time.

607
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,760
And I, I got it done And I, I
think it's definitely the most

608
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,360
informative book on kratom out
there.

609
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,880
It's a complete A through Z
because there's some, there's

610
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,680
some books about science.
There's some books about, you

611
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,840
know, the history or political.
This is everything in in one.

612
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,280
It's like a complete, like A
through Z and pretty much like

613
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:53,000
my life's work in, in in a book.
It's right now it's only in PDF.

614
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,760
I'm trying to figure out how to
format it for Amazon.

615
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:01,120
It's it's hard, but I yeah,
it's, it's a really good book,

616
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:02,040
though.
I'm super proud of it.

617
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:03,640
Very.
Proud of it yeah I'll put a link

618
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,840
to it in in the description here
and I I mean it's really

619
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,040
generous of you just to make it
available free for for everyone

620
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,199
anybody that wants to download
it, it's still the case right

621
00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:16,679
since it's been.
Out yeah yeah yes exactly like

622
00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:21,360
the the paperbacks once it's
done will be for purchase but

623
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,360
like that's just because that's
what Amazon charges you know

624
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,040
it's not like I'm trying to get
rich off a book you know I'm

625
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:33,080
just I just want the information
to be out there for sure and I'm

626
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,320
I I think I did a good job I
really did so I it's.

627
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,159
Really good.
Yeah, yeah.

628
00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:42,080
Did you did you read it?
I didn't read the whole thing

629
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:43,360
but like.
I've gone through.

630
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,880
It a bit just to, you know, I
haven't had time to like I'm not

631
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,800
good with sitting and reading.
I'm more like an I like audible

632
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,199
because I can just listen.
I love when Arthur, you know,

633
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:55,639
reads their book and you just
listen to it like a podcast.

634
00:34:55,639 --> 00:34:57,800
That's.
What I'm doing next too?

635
00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,440
So are you OK?
Good, good.

636
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,320
Because I have a really hard
time.

637
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,080
I think the older I get, the
more ADD I've become.

638
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:06,560
I was never like this in my
life.

639
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,080
But you keep hearing about
people as they age, like

640
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,480
discovering ADD and I'm like, I
think I am.

641
00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:15,400
It's just harder and harder to
focus.

642
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,200
And it's just really hard for me
to sit down and read.

643
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:21,280
But I can listen.
I'll have you know, Airpods in

644
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,120
and I'll be listening to a
podcast or an audio book while

645
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,040
I'm doing everything.
Like that's just normal for me.

646
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,960
But but I did go through some of
your book and I was like, wow,

647
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,600
this is really good.
Like you did a great job.

648
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:33,920
Thank you.
Thank you.

649
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,480
Yeah.
And I was going to do the audio

650
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,080
book sooner that I talked myself
out of it because I like, I

651
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,280
sound like a Stoner surfer.
Like, are they gonna take this?

652
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,480
Are they gonna take this
serious?

653
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,000
But I was like, no, just screw
it, I'll do it.

654
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:49,880
You should do it, you should do
it, you should.

655
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,520
People would love it and it's a
great option to have.

656
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,080
Let's switch gears for a moment
and talk about the people with

657
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,080
70 age, not the companies.
I think a lot of them are shady

658
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,480
and it just terrible what
they're doing given these

659
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,560
products, drug names, not going
through the proper, you know,

660
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,400
process of getting these
approved and then putting them

661
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,560
in smoke shops and gas stations
all over.

662
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:17,360
But, you know, people, I've
talked to plenty of people who

663
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,040
say I use it responsibly.
I don't consume that much.

664
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,840
What's your thought with that?
You know, with people, they're

665
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,800
like, I researched it, I
understand what I'm taking.

666
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,800
I just just like with kratom
powder, I want safe and legal

667
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,640
access.
I don't want them to take this

668
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:36,960
away.
I can't get my pain meds

669
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:38,400
anymore.
They won't prescribe.

670
00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:42,000
So what's your thought on that?
I know it's a much smaller

671
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,080
segment of people, but what's
your thought on that?

672
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:49,960
Yeah, I think people, as long as
they're educated on what it

673
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,240
truly is and they think it's the
best choice for them, then of

674
00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:58,080
course I, I can support that.
What I, I won't support though,

675
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,760
is people saying, oh, these 7
hydroxy companies, oh, I buy it

676
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,640
from a responsible manufacturer.
Well, there, there's no such

677
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,840
thing as a responsible
manufacturer because, you know,

678
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,320
there's unknown substances to
science in every single 7

679
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,400
hydroxy tablet.
When I went to the University of

680
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,200
Florida, you know, they have
these machines are $500,000,

681
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,760
basically $400,000.
And you know, they showed me

682
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,240
like every single one of these,
we don't know what these

683
00:37:24,240 --> 00:37:27,280
substances are like, yes,
there's 7 hydroxy in here, but

684
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,640
there's multiple substances that
we just can't identify.

685
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,160
We're all adults and people can
make the best choice for

686
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,000
themselves.
I would never have a problem

687
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,440
with a consumer of seven
hydroxy.

688
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:44,240
My problem is the manufacturers
and just don't call it crate

689
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,480
basically.
But unfortunately, it seems like

690
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:52,240
a lot of people are going to
lose access to 7 hydroxy.

691
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:54,640
That's just the world that we
live in.

692
00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:59,280
What I don't like, though, is
some of the seven hydroxy

693
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,040
consumers, they talk bad on the
leaf itself.

694
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:07,320
It's like the lot of these
people, they were taking kratom

695
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,240
from a smoke shop and they went
to seven hydroxy saying, Oh

696
00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:12,840
yeah, well, krate kratom sucks.
Well, yeah, 'cause you're

697
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,440
getting it from a smoke shop
that the term kratom saves lives

698
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:22,800
was in in existence A decade
before 7 hydroxy ever hit the

699
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,800
market.
And that I guess that's the only

700
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:29,360
thing with the consumers, some 7
hydroxy consumers, some I've met

701
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,160
our wonderful kind people for
for sure.

702
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,600
But it's it's the opposite of
normal kratom.

703
00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:39,400
You know, there is a small
percentage that are benefiting,

704
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,560
but the mass mass majority are
are are are struggling.

705
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,720
But I don't like that some of
these people are talking bad on

706
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:50,160
the leaf itself.
You know, they just haven't had

707
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,040
good kratom.
And we, we get people off the

708
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,800
seven hydroxy everyday.
It's basically what I do all

709
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,800
day, every single day.
Now I, I, I wish it wasn't like

710
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:02,840
this, but you know, if you have
really good high quality kratom,

711
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:08,920
it can work just as, as good, if
not if not better for people you

712
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:10,680
know.
Absolutely.

713
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:12,480
Yeah.
You're, you're doing so much to

714
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,080
help people and I really
appreciate it.

715
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:18,120
I'm always sending people to you
because so many people need

716
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:19,480
help.
They need to, they, they don't

717
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,320
know what to do.
They've tried to get off, they

718
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:25,000
haven't been able to.
So what I want to wrap up with

719
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,280
in this discussion is if
somebody's watching this right

720
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,360
now and they're struggling and
they need some help, how what do

721
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,480
you just, however comfortable
you're talking about this part,

722
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,800
but like, what do you advise
people to do?

723
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:42,680
Yeah, well number one is is
avoid smoke shops. 100% smoke

724
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,160
shops are the worst of both
worlds.

725
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,680
You either get these
Frankenstein products like 7

726
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,600
hydroxy, or you get such low
quality powders, basically

727
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,960
glorified dirt to try to get off
the seven hydroxy using smoke

728
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,800
shop quality kratom.
It's simply math because the

729
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,280
algaloids simply aren't there.
You'd have to consume so much

730
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,480
normal powder that you would
puke violently before you got

731
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,160
like any sort of relief.
We have a protocol.

732
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:11,080
We have a 7 hydroxy quake kit
which comes with 50 grams of

733
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,560
powdered extract and then like
various types of pure.

734
00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:18,800
Pure leaf powder we always start
people on like the extract.

735
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,600
I I think of the extract as like
a bridge for a lot of people.

736
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:28,200
Not not not for everyone but it
bridges the gap between 7

737
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,480
hydroxy.
Being on a a full spectrum

738
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:36,080
tested powder is like 100 times
better than being on 7 hydroxy.

739
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,240
But being on pure leaf powder is
like 3 times better than being

740
00:40:39,240 --> 00:40:40,760
on an extract if that makes
sense.

741
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,240
But if you use it for short term
use, very bit beneficial for a

742
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,560
lot of people.
But you know, it's crazy though

743
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,240
too, because I've gotten people
off from anywhere starting at

744
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:54,600
like 5 milligrams per day all
the way up to 2500 milligrams,

745
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,600
like huge numbers.
I'd say the average person that

746
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,120
reaches out is like 500.
Some people are like 1000, some

747
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:05,960
people are like 250, you know,
and it's weird.

748
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,800
One guy that was at 2500
milligrams, I was trying

749
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,440
everything extra and it wasn't
working and he actually needed

750
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,040
the least amount of normal
powder.

751
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,120
Like he took 3 grams of normal
powder and and it worked. 3

752
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,960
grams of normal powder might not
do anything for a dude who's

753
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:23,480
never even done a drug in his
life.

754
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,840
You know, it's just crazy.
It's so subjective from person

755
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:29,680
to person.
Like that's why the kit comes

756
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,360
with the extract, comes with
white, comes with green to get

757
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,640
off of to get off of 7 hydroxy.
It comes down to a few different

758
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,080
things.
Does your body respond best to

759
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,440
the the extract or the pure leaf
powder?

760
00:41:41,240 --> 00:41:44,760
Then also what what color red,
white or or green?

761
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,920
For most people it's green but
some people only white whites

762
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,920
work or only Reds will work.
But the most important thing

763
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,080
like the foundation is the
dosaging.

764
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,880
If you don't get your dosaging
right it nothing else matters.

765
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:01,400
So basically what I do is I work
one-on-one with people and I

766
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,800
always tell people getting
people off of 7 hydroxy is like

767
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,240
kind of like putting a puzzle
together, but it's a puzzle I've

768
00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:09,920
done like literally thousands
and thousands of Times Now.

769
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,080
I know exactly where the pieces
go.

770
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,120
We just need to find the pieces
and put it on the board at the

771
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:19,480
same time, you know?
So I basically am like a guide

772
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,040
through the whole process with
people.

773
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,200
You know, I can start people off
on certain dosages, see how they

774
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:27,960
respond and just keep
readjusting.

775
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,600
It does take trial and error.
Some people get lucky and get it

776
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,520
right there first try.
Sometimes we get it on day 4.

777
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,880
You know, I can't ever guarantee
people it's going to work their

778
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:41,040
first try, but we have a very,
very, very high success rate

779
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:42,720
with what we do, like extremely
high.

780
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,360
That's great.
It's a great service you're

781
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,160
providing because so many people
need help right now.

782
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:52,760
And yeah, I, I'm so glad you're
somebody out there that's, you

783
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,640
know, very publicly open, openly
helping people, letting people

784
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,720
know that like, hey, if you need
help, I'm here for you.

785
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,040
So thank you for doing that.
Of course, and yeah, to to

786
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,240
people too, like I always tell
people I I wish it was easy as

787
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,040
oh, take this freedom and take X
amount.

788
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,080
It will 100% work.
But we're all such different

789
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,360
people that it it it's never
like that.

790
00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:18,600
And if anyone is struggling,
yeah, reach out to Madeline or,

791
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,720
or, or reach to me.
And I'm more than happy to help

792
00:43:21,720 --> 00:43:25,680
walk you through the process.
And yeah, you have a great

793
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,760
chance of being successful.
Well, thank you for spending

794
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,080
time with us today and sharing
all this very valuable

795
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,000
information.
I know this is helping lots of

796
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,200
people that are watching this so
appreciate you taking the time.

797
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:38,000
Yeah, of course.
Thank you for having me.