Ep 83: From Advocacy to Action: Jordan Richard’s Fight to Protect Kratom from 7OH

0:00 My, my biggest concern is educating people on the differences. And I just hate that 7 hydroxy has muddied the waters. We, we made such amazing progress for years and years and years. I've been on the front lines since, gosh, 2014, maybe even a little bit sooner, just just trying to keep kratom legal. And we made such strides. And then it's like this 7 hydroxy just comes in like a tornado and rips up everything that we've, we fought for. I mean, there, there is some wins though, you know, the FDA saying that they can, they, they know the difference between normal kratom and, and seven hydroxy. So it's always going to be a fight. So I'm here with Jordan Richard from New Hope Botanicals, one of my favorite kratom vendors.

0:53 And you've been on the podcast. I'm going to link to that. So people can, you know, if they haven't heard your story, they can check it out. It was almost two years ago when I had you on already. But I know, and for those that don't know Jordan, he's a fierce kratom advocate. Super excited to welcome you back, Jordan, to the podcast. I wanted to bring you on because so much has gone on in these last few years since you were on the podcast in terms of seven, OH, it's like, first it was kratom powder and extracts, and we don't hear about extracts anymore. All we hear about is 7. OH, and you've been like a real crusader, educating people, going to hearings all around California, calling in on the Zoom ones around other parts of the country. I mean, you're just doing so much to help our leaf. So I just wanted to have a chat with you and have you update us on like what what's happening and maybe we want to start first.

1:47 Somebody that doesn't even know what 70 H is. There's still a lot of confusion. How do you explain the people the difference between leaf kratom and 7OH? Sure, yeah. And and I think before I get into that, people need to understand the biology of a kratom leaf and why it's called 7 hydroxymetrazine. So 70 is not present within the actual leaf itself. It is a post harvest metabolite. So when you pick off when I was in Indonesian, I picked the leaf off the tree that there are 07 hydroxy in there. However, these leaves need to be dried to turn into a powder to ship here to America. During that drying process due to oxidation, like miniscule amounts of metrogenine, kratom's main alkaloid. Think think of metrogenine to kratom as like caffeine to coffee.

2:41 It's what makes the plants it. Those are the main alkaloids that make the plant what it is basically. But due to oxidation, microscopic amounts of metrogenine are converted into seven hydroxy. But tragedy. But it's typically less than 0.0010% like it. It's so small and so it is in the dry powder, but it's not within the leaf itself. So 7 hydroxy is an extremely powerful metabolite. And what these companies do though is they will take a kratom extract. And we have to remember kratom, normal kratom extracts, and seven hydroxy are three completely separate things. The only thing that I would consider like real kratom is either fresh kratom leaves or dried kratom powder. Think of that like coffee.

3:36 Then you have the metrogenine extracts. That's like a, that's like a caffeine pill, you know, So what they'll do is they'll take a metrogenine extract and then they'll chemically convert it into 7 hydroxy and seven hydroxy is incredibly powerful. It could be beneficial to to some people but the vast majority of people who are using it, their lives are in shambles. I always tell people the best way out of addiction is kratom. A lot of people go into 7 hydroxy though, thinking it's a way out of addiction, but it's a way into addiction. Not not to say that it can't be beneficial for a small number of people, but the vast majority of people who take normal kratom say it's improved their life.

4:22 And the vast majority of people I speak to taking 7 hydroxy saying that it's hindering their life for sure. You're getting something that is completely natural like kratom compared to something that is used made. Some people say that they use pool chemicals to chemically, chemically convert. That's what Doctor Chris McCurdy said when when when I interviewed him. The scariest thing, though, about 7 Hydroxy 1 is the way that they market it. A lot of these manufacturers don't give a crap about kratom. They'll make it look like a perk 30 or they'll make it look like lean. They make it look like Xanax bars and stuff like that, but they're calling it kratom, which is scary.

5:03 Like the amount comparing 180 milligram tablet of seven OH compared to the amount of seven hydroxy that is found in powder is roughly 6000 times stronger. Like the the the amount. It's crazy it would take and a lot of people think that it's a kratom extract but it's actually impossible. There's not enough 7 hydroxy available in the powder to extract it. It has to be chemically converted. It would take pounds and pounds and pounds and pounds the raw material to make one tablet of seven hydroxy. The cost of the raw powder would cost way more than what you buy the whole pack of, you know, 7 hydroxy for. So it's, it's really muddied the waters a lot. It's made my job way, way, way harder. It, it, it could be great if it went through the, the drug approval process, but you know, that takes 10 years and a billion dollars to bring a new drug to market. You know, these manufacturers would just like would rather make millions and millions right now. What what really gets me upset about 7 hydroxy is so many people were doing amazing on normal Kratom and then the smoke shop give them a free sample saying, oh, it's kratom but better and their lives are in shamble. 7 Hydroxy is not innovation, it's deception that that's the best way I can explain it.

6:23 That's a great way of putting it because I know you get inundated with people reaching out to you, asking questions, asking for help. I send a lot of people to you because I get so many people in my DMS or just in my TikTok comments that tell me stories of like, like what you're saying consuming Kratom no issues is helping them. And then they were given a free sample at the smoke shop or told it's just stronger Kratom and not understanding exactly what it is. And so many people have gotten hooked on it just from getting that and, and liking it and like, I want more and going back to old habits and it's, it's terrible. The, the problems people have had because of it is. Yeah, exactly.

7:10 And you know, kratom, the actual plant, it isn't an opioid by by definition. It affects many different parts of the brain such as serotonergic, dopaminergic, androgenergic. But the way I the, the way that 7 hydroxy is being sold is an opioid. And and I know that's a scary word. I mean, opioids have helped a lot of people for a long time. But you know, under the controlled substances Act, yeah, 7 hydroxy is going to be scheduled for sure. It meets all the criteria. Well, normal kratom doesn't. I think that's a another conversation with it in itself.

7:51 You know, I think a lot of us kratom advocates and vendors, we are not prohibitionists whatsoever, but we also have to do what's necessary to protect the plant itself. You know, like my fight is always for kratom and the only time you'll hear me say 7 hydroxy needs to be banned is when kratom's on the chopping block. I'll throw 7 hydroxy under the bus again. My, my biggest concern is educating people on the differences. And I just hate that 7 hydroxy has muddied the waters. We, we made such amazing progress for years and years and years. I've been on the front lines since, gosh, 2014, maybe even a little bit sooner, just trying to keep kratom legal and we made such strides. And then it's like this 7 hydroxy just comes in like a tornado and rips up everything that we've, we fought for. I mean, there, there is some wins though. You know, the FDA saying that they can, they, they know the difference between normal kratom and, and seven hydroxy. So it's always going to be a fight. Yeah, for sure.

8:58 Well, it was pretty amazing several months back when the FDA made the announcement that they were targeting 7. OH, they wanted to be scheduled one. They requested the DEA and that powder was fine, but nothing's happened with the DEA. What's your thought on that? I thought things would go into motion a lot quicker. Oh no. So in 2016, kratom was going to be banned and we had third 30 days because that was an emergency scheduling. So they're allowed to do that. The DEA is allowed to do an emergency scheduling if HHS says so. But basically that doesn't make the substance like illegal, but it's schedule one for two years.

9:41 But when it comes to the actual review process, it takes time. It can take 6 months, it can take like a year. There's a lot of legal frameworks. And I've been blessed to know a lot about the behind the scenes of it because I've become decently good friends with Jim Carroll, who's the former drug czar of the United States. And I through my documentaries and like writing my book and stuff, I've got to talk to a lot of politicians and see how it actually works. Like, cuz you think like, oh, they said it's going to be legal. So it's going to happen tomorrow, you know, but there is a, there's a huge process. But like Florida banned 7 hydroxy overnight basically cuz it was their emergency scheduling. So yeah, it takes time.

10:31 I would say in the next six months to like a year that it will happen. And the time, right now is the time to educate people on the difference and help people off the seven hydroxy that that want to get off of it, you know? Yeah, it's so interesting how government works because just like you were saying, Florida does the the emergency schedule and literally said midnight tonight, we're taking it off the shelves and just threw everybody off guard because we didn't know nobody saw that coming yet. The federal government is like, we're requesting the DEA do this for the DEAI don't understand the legal frameworks and all that is. It's just interesting how government can, like, do some things and then do other things. Yeah, sometimes fast, sometimes slow. You just never know.

11:15 And both are are wrong too. You know, it's not a very good idea for Florida to ban such a powerful substance overnight, you know, but also too like the federal government, like, do you really want to again, do you want to drag it out for this long? You know, you have to give people time to prepare. And unfortunately, that's the world that we live in. Things are going to get banned. Things are that's how the government sees it. It's either right, regulation or or prohibition. Those are the two choices. And and I get that a lot from people because I'm trying to do a lot of work here in California. People are like, oh, you're just getting it. The government, you know, they're going to get their money. It's like, well, I'd rather them get their money then people not have access to to kratom. We have two choices.

11:57 It's prohibition or regulation. Those are the two options when it comes to Kratom. Yeah, yeah. So a lot's been going on in California. You've been doing a great job of updating your community through your e-mail newsletters. And I saw one that you sent out today saying California kratom bombshell updates and you're talking about the things going on there, the Narcotics Board and tell us a little bit about what's happening there Because it sounded like all of a sudden in California, they're going to ban all kratom. And now you're talking about like it sounds like 70 being banned, but not the powder, not the leaf. Yeah, so it's it's actually very confusing. So out of nowhere, the California Department of Health declared kratom legal, not the plant itself, but they're saying the way it's being sold, you can't sell kratom as a drug. That makes sense because the FDA approved you have to go through a huge process, but you also can't sell it as a food or you can't sell it as like a supplement, basically. So what category do you have besides its own ping? So that they're trying to like muddy the waters, that gives them the the right to seize products, gives them the right to raid smoke shops and everything. Well, in their minds it does.

13:15 And whenever they're raiding people, they're giving them a paper from the FDA's old verbiage on their website basically saying that it's illegal to this is basically illegal in their eyes, even though there's no, there's no law on the books backing that up. Like right now, it's just words and it's they're going around raiding people. It's not systematically, it's Willy nilly. Basically. There's been a, a few raids and it's just the people that have been raided actually can sue back because there's no justification. They're not citing any sort of laws whatsoever. But when I went to testify in Irvine, CA, the lady that was trying to ban kratom, the city Councilwoman, she called for like an expert witness.

14:01 And there's a guy from the, the California Narcotics Board. And I'm sitting there and I'm, I'm sweating like, Oh my God, this is going to be so bad. Like I know this is going to go horrible. And then this guy starts talking and it's like, Oh my God, like this dude really knows what he's talking about. So he's been doing like a lot of work and I've befriended him and you know, we've become good friends talking almost every single day. And he wrote a bill called AAB 1088 where it's regulating normal kratom and banning 7 hydroxy. And I've been to so many different meetings all across Southern California and we're like 6 for six or five for #5 every single one that was going to ban kratom ended up regulating normal kratom and banning 7 hydroxy.

14:46 The health board is their own thing. You know, basically what we need to do now is get the FDA to change the verbiage on their website. Then this basically kind of goes away. At least that's what the guy from the narcotics board was what what was telling us. We're still fully operational. Nothing has changed. The birds are still the sun's still shining, but you know, at any moment things can can happen. And overall I I don't know if kratom itself will ever become legal and illegal in California. And I think every state is extremely important to keep kratom legal in 100%. But California could be the most important one is because the port like basically all kratom coming into the United States all comes from the port of San Francisco. All of it.

15:37 So you like you're shutting down access to the the rest of the country also too, for better, for worse, what typically starts in California spreads to the rest of the country. You know, a lot of times it starts in California and there's so many. We have more creative consumers here than any other state too, because there's so many more people, obviously. So California is a very, very important state. As of right now, though, the health board is, is still rogue. But we've had so many like victories, so many back-to-back, gosh, my said are so bad right now. Riverside and Laguna Niguel, Irvine, every single place has decided to regulate kratom and ban 7 hydroxy. And if AB1088 passes, then it's like the framework of the Creative Consumer Protection Act, but it's not the same thing.

16:32 I actually introduced the gentleman from the Narcotics Board to Mac Haddo from the AKA. So they've been like kind of talking now, which is a blessing. But you know, I looked at the regulations and it seems fair. It seems like it's good ret regulation set setting. Obviously you can't sell the kids 20. You can't sell to someone under 21. You can't flashy packaging also too, like the total content of seven hydroxy can't be more than 2% of the total leaf. Like it's all common sense stuff, which was really cool because I've seen some regulations that were not good, you know, So that's. Good. Yeah. Well, it seems like California has really been under attack. You've been speaking in person at a lot of different hearings throughout the state more recently. And then just like in Illinois, they've been under attack with all those different suburbs of Chicago trying to ban kratom. And then Massachusetts.

17:27 It's interesting how there's these specific states where it seems like there's this coordinated effort to get kratom banned. I think it'd be a domino effect like what you're talking about if something happened with California and you know, it almost happened here in Texas where I live earlier this year, they tried to ban it all. And like I can see like that domino effect, you get one or two big States and then others will use that to follow suit. And, and, but it takes people advocating and you've done an amazing job getting out there and talking and sharing your personal story and how kratom helps you. Thank you. Yeah. The scariest thing about California is the port, you know, like everything pretty much goes through through San Francisco. But yeah, I was happy.

18:10 What did they end up doing in Texas, though? It's. Kind of so earlier this year in Texas, what they wanted to do and they were doing it in Florida too, but they did both of these and end up not passing. They were trying. They were targeting seven O 8. And we have a KCPA. But the senator that brought the ban said on publicly when he, you know, was presenting this, that powder was fine. It was a seven O 8. But he said we're just going to ban it all. And that was very concerning that that's the stance they want to take is when we have a KCPA, all they got to do is enforce it and then we wouldn't have 70 H on the shelves. But they're not, they admitted they're not enforcing it.

18:53 So they just figured, let's just ban it all. And luckily, I mean, it did go through the Senate in Texas, but luckily it died in a House committee. And so it didn't go any further. But it's scary that you can have one representative in the state bring this up and get the wheels in motion and and publicly say leaf powder's fine, but we want it all banned because it's just easier for them and that's scary. Yeah, that, that that's very scary. Sensible regulation and all that prohibition are two very different things. It's like, heaven forbid you have to do your job, you know? But to have a KCPA already established it makes no sense to me. Like if they just enforced it and, and I mean I don't understand and how all that goes into motion, but when they enforce AKCPA, there's like what, 18 of them around the country now, 18 states that have an adopt. 17 or 18? Yeah.

19:44 Yeah, the Kratom Consumer Protection Act, my understanding is when they a state adopts that, they've got to already figure out like what's the funding going to be, how they're going to enforce it. I mean, in that part of how they do it behind the scenes, Like you don't just approve it statewide without a plan. Of how you would enforce it and pay for it. So obviously Texas have got has got to have some kind of plan to enforce and money to pay for it, but nothing ever happened and they would just rather ban. So The thing is we got two years until they'll start over with it in Texas. So that gives me and my Texas advocates time to like, you know, be talking to as many people as possible and helping people understand there's a difference and regulation is the way to go.

20:31 Yeah, and education is key. When we were in when I met you in Washington, DC, there's a a gentleman, former New York City Senator David Carlucci. And he's from New York. And he, he was saying like how he proposed a bill to to ban kratom. And then so many people started writing in that he like took a step back and was like, wow, you know, like that maybe I was wrong. And then he proposed legislation that he he proposed the Kratom Super Protection Act, you know, the guy that was wanting it gone. You know, people can do a huge radical 180. Even the guy from the the narcotics board here in California is like, you know, us as narcotic officers, we just want to ban everything.

21:16 He goes. I'm not a creative advocate, but like, I'm pro truth too, which was really cool. And so, yeah, people in in high places can definitely help out. When I interviewed Doctor Jack Henningfield, he said something to me that I'll never forget. He goes, you know, the FDA is the best in the world at what they do. They're like, I really think that he says, I really think that they're going to figure out this whole kratom thing over time. He goes the vast majority of people at the FDA, they're just trying to do the best they they can. And to be honest, I didn't believe him at the time. So I was like, oh, it's all big pharma government stuff, you know, But the way the FDA has shifted has, is pretty incredible that a lot of these people, they're just uneducated. And once the facts come out, they tend to side with us. And education is such a, a, a crucial, crucial thing, especially the people in powerful positions like you, the people in Louisiana, the Senator Jim Morris or whatever his name was, you know, these people, they're trying to educate them and they just wouldn't listen.

22:18 So the the the more we educate now, the the better basically. Absolutely. But it would be helpful if the FDA would officially publish the results of the single dose study they did several years ago because like that right there contradicts everything that's currently on their website about freedom not being safe. And we don't recommend it. And then it be their statements on their website being used against us so many times with this, these hearings. But it's like people don't even realize there was a single dose study that the FDA did, you know, feeding a lot of capsules, 12 grams in a 5 minute period. Nobody died, nobody got ill, no issues. You know, some nausea, which would be expected if I took that many capsules, you know, 12 grams of capsules in 5 minutes. I would be feeling so hot just because of that many capsule shells sitting in your stomach, you know? Yeah.

23:11 And when I interviewed Doctor Chris McCurdy, he said that he was going to be helped. He was going to help lead the human trials that the FDA is funding. That's a radical difference than what it was when we were fighting in 2016 two 1017, you know, and this, this FDA seems much more lenient towards kratom than what we had with Doctor Scott Gottlieb That, that that was the hardest time for kratom ever by far. Oh, he was something else. Oh my God, that boy. He sure was out to get kratom banned. It's it's wild seeing that. You know how in 2016 how hard they all tried to get it banned and it was close to getting banned.

23:51 It didn't happen. And they, it did seem like things got better and better over time until the whole 708 thing started a few years ago. But really, like in the past year, that's when I started getting contacted left and right by people having issues with 708 and literally telling me they can't stop they people. And I know you hear these stories way more than I do, but so many people sending me because they'd see me depending on TikTok videos educating like you do like educating people and you know, 7 O age and what's the difference between that and regular kratom and just talking about it. And people will come into my DMS and say I I got duped. I I've always been a productive member of society. I have a family, I have a job and I can't do any like this thing has me so messed up.

24:36 I can't even take care of my family. I'm worried about getting divorced. I can't keep a job like horrendous things that these people are going through from something that they all said, they all took responsibility on what none of these people that reached out to me said, you know, you get that anonymous people in the comments, they'll say it's kratom's fault, it's your fault. But the people that are coming into our DMS that they all told me like, it's my fault. I should have understood what I was taking. I should have researched, but I just need help and I just can't get out of this cycle. Yeah, it's just heartbreaking. Yeah, everyone deserves something. They, they, they deserve informed consent.

25:17 That's the big, if you tell people the pros and cons of seven hydroxy and they decide to, to, to do it and can use it responsibly, hey, that's a blessing for them. It's just the fact that all these people have been lied to like crazy. I, I, I don't know if you see the Facebook ads of like people at parties like 07 hydroxy is so fun, 100% pure botanicals, you know, or they'll put like, like billboards up saying 3 samples of seven hydroxy, like ready to feel better, like you as like a kratom vendor. We're gatekeepers. There's a lot of people that come into my store that try to buy Kratom, but we were like, I don't think this is a good fit for you.

25:57 You know, you, you want people to have a problem and they they found Kratom on their own. They were looking up for a solution to their problem, which led them to kratom, which led them to you. But the seven hydroxy people do the exact opposite. They're just throwing it out to the general public like, oh, here, take this, take this, take this, like that is so wrong. You know, like this Kratom is such a blessing for the people that need it. You know, it's, it's so respected in Southeast Asia. And a lot of the reason why we're in this situation we are now is because of the public perception that 7 hydroxy has caused and everyone calling it kratom.

26:45 That's just the it's a hard battle that that we as advocates have to fight every single day. Well, there's so many shady companies, you know these seven OH companies that like very shady ones out there. So there there's a company that stole some of my TikTok videos talking about kratom. Just hold my whole leaf Kratom powder stole them put up. Use them as Facebook ads to get people to come get free 7 OH watch. Yeah, that is insane. And it took a while for Facebook. Facebook took one of them down. I don't think they took them all down. And it's just like, how sleazy is that? So they're playing my videos of me talking positive about whole leaf kratom powder, but they're being duped into like it's you. Know thinking it's it's crazy.

27:33 708 yeah takes them to this web page. It's it's shady as hell. Wow I don't understand like we can't even say the word kratom on Facebook anymore, yet people can buy ads for 70 H products and just plaster it all over Facebook. I just got my Facebook account ban today and like I logged in and says your account is permanently disabled. And then I like appealed it and they gave me my account back. But like I told, I told Mark Zuckerberg that I'm right. I'm right in the the wheels off this thing. I'm going to keep posting it like that's just how I feel. I'll just start a new one I I guess. But yeah, it's like these people can run ads no problem, but we can't even say the word.

28:17 It's ridiculous. I all the social media platforms have have really gotten out of control with with censoring us talking about kratom TikTok is really bad and Facebook has really been out of control and even YouTube I'm having issues with YouTube. I was in YouTube jail last week and I wasn't able to put up any videos or my kratom gals live stream for like one whole week because of the video they didn't like and put a strike on my account and told me I'm basically in a time out for a whole week. And it's just we're talking about a plant and educating people. That's all we do, you know, and it's it's incredibly frustrating, but I know that's not going to stop you from educating and advocating.

29:01 It doesn't stop me from doing it. I think it's incredibly important what we do helping people big and, and I wish there was more of that out there because people desperately, you know, need to know more about this, you know, what, what are these things and just getting the facts. And so you've been working on a documentary the last couple of years. And so like you were saying before, you've been talking to like all the experts, you've gone to Indonesia, you put out, you know, some clips of various things. What's it been like making a documentary about Kratom? I'm I'm sure that's been really interesting. Stressful. That's probably the best thing I can explain it, but also very humbling as well.

29:42 You know, I broke down and cried a few times, one out of frustration and others out of like joy because of like when I after I interviewed doctor Jack Henningfield, who's just like world renowned addiction expert, like I just went back to the hotel room and I cried because of like how far I came. You know, there's a point where I overdosed twice in one week. You know, how that gunpoint by going on low speed chases from the cops, you know, and to like now sitting there in like a suit and tie interviewing one of the most respected addiction scientists basically ever was a big moment for for me, you know, so proud. But also time like, gosh, this is such a huge ordeal. I keep thinking it's going to be way easier than it is, but it's not.

30:30 There's hours and hours and hours and like I'm going to Thailand in February, you know, trying to set up all these interviews with kratom historians and the it's just, it's so many missing, not missing pieces, but like connecting pieces. It's like putting a puzzle together and all I can do is just go one day at a time and hopefully just get it done as soon as possible. It's just a lot of work, especially with like 2-2 guys and you know, it's hard. Well, y'all are very passionate about it, which is awesome. And when we were hanging out in DC a few years ago, I love that y'all are just doing a lot of filming and interviewing people and, you know, putting this together. I know it's a lot of work doing a documentary and it takes a long time.

31:13 Like it's, you know, I know a lot of people are always asking you in the comments when whenever you show clips, like when is the documentary coming out? But it's, it's a lot to do. But it's but it's like the the level at which all are doing this is amazing. And I can't wait till it comes out. So that way, you know, more education to help people. We need more documentaries about kratom. Yeah, I remember I was getting kind of down on myself was how how long it was taking US. And then I remember that Leap of Faith had like a full production crew and that took like 4 years for them to, I mean, it took years. So I'm like, OK, maybe I'm not as bad as I think we're not getting. No, I think y'all are right on track because you're doing like, it's not like it's a really narrow scope. I mean, you've been to Indonesia, now you're going to Thailand.

31:59 You've been interviewing all the top kratom scientists and experts. It's a process, you know. It takes time to do. All that for sure. And, and you know, funding to like, I've had to, we're blessed to raise like 6 grand, which was a, a huge help, but I've, I've also funded the vast majority of it myself. So I had to do it like in chunks, you know, like, and, you know, save up, then do it, save up, then do it. So again, this is no one's responsibility besides my own to, to, to get it done. But the, the community did help a tremendous amount and I'm just, I'm very grateful for that. But again, I have to, I started and I got to make sure it gets done as soon as possible, but I have to make sure it's the best as possible to I I don't want to throw something together that's like super just like Willy nilly. Right.

32:45 Oh, I know it'll be great once it comes out and you've written a book, a kratom book. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, so basically it's called the truth about kratom. Life saving plant or botanical menace. And it took me about 2 1/2 years to to write. I was kind of like just, you know, dabbling, putting down my thoughts. And then after I got back from Indonesia, I was like, OK, I really need to like finish this. Like so I just sat down for literally gosh, 4 1/2 months and that's all I did all day, every day, like 1213 hours. My was affecting my marriage. Like it was like I got so I was so hyper focused on it like all the time.

33:29 And I, I got it done And I, I think it's definitely the most informative book on kratom out there. It's a complete A through Z because there's some, there's some books about science. There's some books about, you know, the history or political. This is everything in in one. It's like a complete, like A through Z and pretty much like my life's work in, in in a book. It's right now it's only in PDF. I'm trying to figure out how to format it for Amazon. It's it's hard, but I yeah, it's, it's a really good book, though. I'm super proud of it. Very. Proud of it yeah I'll put a link to it in in the description here and I I mean it's really generous of you just to make it available free for for everyone anybody that wants to download it, it's still the case right since it's been. Out yeah yeah yes exactly like the the paperbacks once it's done will be for purchase but like that's just because that's what Amazon charges you know it's not like I'm trying to get rich off a book you know I'm just I just want the information to be out there for sure and I'm I I think I did a good job I really did so I it's.

34:37 Really good. Yeah, yeah. Did you did you read it? I didn't read the whole thing but like. I've gone through. It a bit just to, you know, I haven't had time to like I'm not good with sitting and reading. I'm more like an I like audible because I can just listen. I love when Arthur, you know, reads their book and you just listen to it like a podcast. That's. What I'm doing next too? So are you OK? Good, good. Because I have a really hard time. I think the older I get, the more ADD I've become. I was never like this in my life. But you keep hearing about people as they age, like discovering ADD and I'm like, I think I am. It's just harder and harder to focus. And it's just really hard for me to sit down and read. But I can listen. I'll have you know, Airpods in and I'll be listening to a podcast or an audio book while I'm doing everything. Like that's just normal for me.

35:27 But but I did go through some of your book and I was like, wow, this is really good. Like you did a great job. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And I was going to do the audio book sooner that I talked myself out of it because I like, I sound like a Stoner surfer. Like, are they gonna take this? Are they gonna take this serious? But I was like, no, just screw it, I'll do it. You should do it, you should do it, you should. People would love it and it's a great option to have. Let's switch gears for a moment and talk about the people with 70 age, not the companies. I think a lot of them are shady and it just terrible what they're doing given these products, drug names, not going through the proper, you know, process of getting these approved and then putting them in smoke shops and gas stations all over.

36:12 But, you know, people, I've talked to plenty of people who say I use it responsibly. I don't consume that much. What's your thought with that? You know, with people, they're like, I researched it, I understand what I'm taking. I just just like with kratom powder, I want safe and legal access. I don't want them to take this away. I can't get my pain meds anymore. They won't prescribe. So what's your thought on that? I know it's a much smaller segment of people, but what's your thought on that? Yeah, I think people, as long as they're educated on what it truly is and they think it's the best choice for them, then of course I, I can support that. What I, I won't support though, is people saying, oh, these 7 hydroxy companies, oh, I buy it from a responsible manufacturer. Well, there, there's no such thing as a responsible manufacturer because, you know, there's unknown substances to science in every single 7 hydroxy tablet. When I went to the University of Florida, you know, they have these machines are $500,000, basically $400,000. And you know, they showed me like every single one of these, we don't know what these substances are like, yes, there's 7 hydroxy in here, but there's multiple substances that we just can't identify.

37:30 We're all adults and people can make the best choice for themselves. I would never have a problem with a consumer of seven hydroxy. My problem is the manufacturers and just don't call it crate basically. But unfortunately, it seems like a lot of people are going to lose access to 7 hydroxy. That's just the world that we live in. What I don't like, though, is some of the seven hydroxy consumers, they talk bad on the leaf itself. It's like the lot of these people, they were taking kratom from a smoke shop and they went to seven hydroxy saying, Oh yeah, well, krate kratom sucks. Well, yeah, 'cause you're getting it from a smoke shop that the term kratom saves lives was in in existence A decade before 7 hydroxy ever hit the market. And that I guess that's the only thing with the consumers, some 7 hydroxy consumers, some I've met our wonderful kind people for for sure.

38:33 But it's it's the opposite of normal kratom. You know, there is a small percentage that are benefiting, but the mass mass majority are are are are struggling. But I don't like that some of these people are talking bad on the leaf itself. You know, they just haven't had good kratom. And we, we get people off the seven hydroxy everyday. It's basically what I do all day, every single day. Now I, I, I wish it wasn't like this, but you know, if you have really good high quality kratom, it can work just as, as good, if not if not better for people you know. Absolutely. Yeah. You're, you're doing so much to help people and I really appreciate it.

39:14 I'm always sending people to you because so many people need help. They need to, they, they don't know what to do. They've tried to get off, they haven't been able to. So what I want to wrap up with in this discussion is if somebody's watching this right now and they're struggling and they need some help, how what do you just, however comfortable you're talking about this part, but like, what do you advise people to do? Yeah, well number one is is avoid smoke shops. 100% smoke shops are the worst of both worlds. You either get these Frankenstein products like 7 hydroxy, or you get such low quality powders, basically glorified dirt to try to get off the seven hydroxy using smoke shop quality kratom. It's simply math because the algaloids simply aren't there. You'd have to consume so much normal powder that you would puke violently before you got like any sort of relief. We have a protocol.

40:07 We have a 7 hydroxy quake kit which comes with 50 grams of powdered extract and then like various types of pure. Pure leaf powder we always start people on like the extract. I I think of the extract as like a bridge for a lot of people. Not not not for everyone but it bridges the gap between 7 hydroxy. Being on a a full spectrum tested powder is like 100 times better than being on 7 hydroxy. But being on pure leaf powder is like 3 times better than being on an extract if that makes sense. But if you use it for short term use, very bit beneficial for a lot of people. But you know, it's crazy though too, because I've gotten people off from anywhere starting at like 5 milligrams per day all the way up to 2500 milligrams, like huge numbers. I'd say the average person that reaches out is like 500. Some people are like 1000, some people are like 250, you know, and it's weird.

41:05 One guy that was at 2500 milligrams, I was trying everything extra and it wasn't working and he actually needed the least amount of normal powder. Like he took 3 grams of normal powder and and it worked. 3 grams of normal powder might not do anything for a dude who's never even done a drug in his life. You know, it's just crazy. It's so subjective from person to person. Like that's why the kit comes with the extract, comes with white, comes with green to get off of to get off of 7 hydroxy. It comes down to a few different things. Does your body respond best to the the extract or the pure leaf powder? Then also what what color red, white or or green? For most people it's green but some people only white whites work or only Reds will work. But the most important thing like the foundation is the dosaging.

41:54 If you don't get your dosaging right it nothing else matters. So basically what I do is I work one-on-one with people and I always tell people getting people off of 7 hydroxy is like kind of like putting a puzzle together, but it's a puzzle I've done like literally thousands and thousands of Times Now. I know exactly where the pieces go. We just need to find the pieces and put it on the board at the same time, you know? So I basically am like a guide through the whole process with people. You know, I can start people off on certain dosages, see how they respond and just keep readjusting. It does take trial and error. Some people get lucky and get it right there first try. Sometimes we get it on day 4. You know, I can't ever guarantee people it's going to work their first try, but we have a very, very, very high success rate with what we do, like extremely high.

42:43 That's great. It's a great service you're providing because so many people need help right now. And yeah, I, I'm so glad you're somebody out there that's, you know, very publicly open, openly helping people, letting people know that like, hey, if you need help, I'm here for you. So thank you for doing that. Of course, and yeah, to to people too, like I always tell people I I wish it was easy as oh, take this freedom and take X amount. It will 100% work. But we're all such different people that it it it's never like that. And if anyone is struggling, yeah, reach out to Madeline or, or, or reach to me. And I'm more than happy to help walk you through the process. And yeah, you have a great chance of being successful. Well, thank you for spending time with us today and sharing all this very valuable information. I know this is helping lots of people that are watching this so appreciate you taking the time.

43:36 Yeah, of course. Thank you for having me.