Ep 53: Jenni's Kratom Success: A Chronic Pain and Addiction Recovery Story

0:00 The thing about kratom, are there withdrawal symptoms? Yes. But it's just like coffee. If you stop drinking coffee, what happens? You get a headache. I'll stop taking kratom. My pain comes back. You know, I feel a little on edge because it calms me down, but it's nothing like coming off opiates. Nothing at all. Welcome to Kratom Stories, a weekly podcast where we share stories of how this amazing plant has changed our lives. I'm your host, Madeleine Sklar. Each week I'll bring you a new episode featuring interviews with experts, advocates, and everyday people who've experienced the benefits of kratom first hand. Join me as we dive deeper into the world of this botanical wonder and discover the amazing stories behind this incredible plant.

0:58 The Kratom Stories Podcast is presented solely for educational purposes. Neither the podcast nor its host promote or endorse the use of kratom, a substance not yet regulated or approved by the FDA. The views and opinions expressed by guests are theirs alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the host or the podcast. The content is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified healthcare provider with any questions regarding the use of kratom. I'm here with Jenny, a really fabulous lady I met on social media, So many people.

1:56 I'm connecting with her on TikTok, which is like the last place I'd ever thought I would meet so many people in our kratom community. But Jenny, I am so glad we connected there. How are you today? I am doing wonderful. Thank you. I am so glad to have you come on the podcast and share your kratom story with us. Let's first start with you telling us a little bit about yourself and life before kratom. OK, my name is Jenny, I'm 47 and I'm from North Carolina. I'm currently disabled with Crohn's disease and multiple Sclerosis with major depressive disorder. At 19 years old I was diagnosed with Crohn's.

2:39 Not only did I have horrid pain in my stomach but my knees as well. Therefore, my nurse practitioner I was seeing at the time decided to prescribe me some opiates. You don't give a 19 year old child, 'cause I was still a child then opiates, but 'cause I was in the mindset, 1 feels good, five feel better. So I started going down that road. Every couple years they would, they would up my dose or change the medication to something stronger. And I was on pain medication for 14 years and I was on more medication than a cancer patient and I was still in pain. I got tired of it.

3:27 I got tired of waking up every day in pain and pretty much chasing that next pill and that it was everyday thing. And there was, I decided to do research on recovery. So I look to a couple celebrities and I, I won't name them 'cause it's a little embarrassing, but, and, but they taught me about recovery and how I should do it. And I figured that the taper method would be the best option for me to come off of the opiates. So I started tapering down. It's that it took me, it took me about a good three or four months.

4:07 And when I took my last pill, I took myself to detox. I was in detox for five days. They offered me a mat, which is a maintenance drug. I refused it because I just thought it in my head. I thought it was silly to exchange one pill for another. I know it has saved a lot of people's lives. It's a personal decision. I respect everybody's views on that. So don't come after me. But so I went out of that detox on a pink cloud because when you, because the first 5-6 days they're pretty hard. Your anxieties up, your, you know, your depression kicks in, but you also start feeling again. So I went to an intensive outpatient program. It was a 12 week program that taught me about addiction and I've learned about how I was predispositioned to be an addict, you know, 'cause I have addicts in my family. So I, I just learned a lot about addiction and I learned all about how different drugs affects your brain different ways and learned that my brain wasn't going to go back to normal until about a year because it takes time for your brain to repair.

5:33 So I, I learned a lot going to that, that outpatient program and concurrently going through the outpatient program. I was also going to an NA meeting, a Narcotics Anonymous, and I got me a really good sponsor, somebody that had a couple decades under their belt. So it was an old timer and she really walked me through everything. So being in recovery was very important to me. About six months, six months to a year, my pain came back tenfold and I was desperate. And my I had a long talk with my sponsor and she showed me in the Blue Book, which is like the Bible for the NA group, and it shows you.

6:25 She showed me the place where it said that addicts, you need something pharmaceutical, that you're not supposed to suffer. But I didn't want to go down that road again. So I'd asked her. I was like, I was like, can I try maybe some medical marijuana? And she was like, that might be a possibility. So I went to a head shop and IA head shop or a smoke shop, whatever you want to call it. And I met this great elderly hippie guy out there and he introduced me to kratom because we sat and talked for about an hour and he introduced me to kratom. He sold me a bottle instead of doing the, the medical marijuana.

7:07 I was like, OK, well, I will try this out. This sounds a little promising. You know, it's a plan. He said you can get dependent on it, but it's not an opioid it but it, it's, it messes with the same receptors as the pain medication does. So I thought that was promising. So I, I took it home and to my surprise, it worked. And immediately my pain was lessened and I was relieved. Not only did it help with the pain, it also eliminated some symptoms I had with the Crohn's disease. See, for years I had loose stools. I know it's bad to talk about, but I had it for years with Crohn's disease and kratom has turned that around to where I'm having normal bowel movements now.

7:57 So that was one thing that shocked me. And then another shocking effects was how it tackled my anxiety and depression that comes along with having a chronic illness. And at the time I only knew about the Crohn's. A year after I got clean, I noticed my my dog, my 80 LB dog was standing on my foot. I could not feel the pain. I knew something was wrong and I've watched two other family members get diagnosed with Ms. So I decided to go to a neurologist and sure enough, I had multiple sclerosis and I caught it extremely early because the doctor was my sister's doctor because me and my sister both have it. And he had me diagnosed within a two week period, which is very, very, very, very rare when you're getting diagnosed with such a big illness.

8:55 But he saw the that I already had two family members and he knew he did that. It was the genetic factor into this. So I got diagnosed with Ms. you know, and I didn't tell any of my doctors at first about the kratom. And that was, I forgot to tell you how long it's been. So that was coming up on 14 years clean this coming February. So that was 14 years ago. So yeah, a lot of people didn't know about kratom back then. But I remember in 2016 how scared I was when the FDA was trying to schedule this drug alongside with all the hard drugs.

9:35 And, you know, our community came together big time to get them to shut that down. It was a scary time for sure, but I'm glad I found it. I hate the way it looks when you Google kratom because all the propaganda, the negative propaganda comes up. I tried to tell because I've had like 3 or 4 friends that I've, I've had try kratom and they're utilizing it now. But I tried to tell them when they first started. I said don't Google it. I said because agencies have put a negative ad campaigns out on this substance and it, you know, and it's not really a substance to me. It's a plant.

10:19 It's a plant, people. It's not a drug, it's a plant. But yeah. So this year I'll be celebrating 14 years clean on February 20th. So, you know, basically kratom gave me my life back. It really did. That's pretty much what everybody says when I talked to them for the podcast that kratom gave them their life back. It did for me as well. Congrats on your 14 years, that's amazing. That is awesome. Your story is so interesting. I have so many questions. When you went to the smoke shop and the hippie guy talked to you about kratom, do you remember what I know? It was a while ago. Could you remember what it was he said that made you want to try it?

11:01 That made you interested in trying it? Yeah, because I didn't want to. Because I I've smoked marijuana in the past and it's just not my thing. I don't like feeling high. I don't like, I don't like feeling like I don't have control. So it's not my favorite thing. I like the medicinal properties of it. But yeah, I just, I just saw it as like, turmeric gets rid of inflammation. You know, kratom can get rid of pain. You know, I think of it as a botanical because that's exactly what it is. And back when you started kratom, there wasn't a lot of information out about it, right?

11:43 So I'm sure it was much harder to research back then. Oh yeah, Thank God for Reddit. You know, I went into the kratom community back then and they taught me everything I wanted to know. There's some snarky Redditors on there. Yes. And they're very protective over kratom, which is understandable because a lot of people come at them and say that kratom kills and this and that, and it's, it's just not true. You know, when I first started taking kratom, you know, the hippie guy told me less is more, which was I'm glad he said that. And but I noticed some of my behaviors coming back of me in active addiction with the opiates.

12:30 So I did the 12 steps all over again at my 6 month or six year mark of being clean just to get myself in check, just to get my behaviors in check 'cause I noticed I was going through 'cause I buy my kratom by the kilo and I noticed I was going through it a whole lot quicker than I used to. Usually a kilo will last me around 2 1/2 three months. So but I noticed I was going through it a lot quicker. Did you start with just the powder or do you start with capsules? Do you remember like how you first started with Granum? Yeah, I started with the capsules at first, but then, you know, the Reddit people really got me into thinking why would you want to have something have to does dissolve at your stomach when you could just go ahead and put the real deal and toss and wash it.

13:24 So I tried it. It worked quicker. It tasted horrible. But being that it's my 12th year on it, then I, I think I'm used to the taste by now. But there are some great alternatives if you don't like the taste of gratum the blade. Blade Papes. Yep. Those are. Cool. Those little pouches are yeah, they are neat, but I just I have see I have dexterity problems with my hands because of my MSI can't pick up small objects so it's kind of hard for me to enable yeah. So I'd rather just do the toss and watch but. Yeah, I can imagine that'd be the easiest thing to do.

14:05 I am so glad you discovered kratom through a smoke shop. That was somebody that educated you. Because so many times people tell me when they learn about it in a smoke shop, it's usually just some person working behind the counter that doesn't know very much and they get steered in the wrong direction where they might be selling them an extract or just not really understanding how the the plant works. And I love when I hear stories like yours, which is not very common, but when is someone who knows enough about the plant where they can educate you on it in the store. And I think that's just so great that you learn about it through this shop with the person there that understood the plant and could relay that information to you. Yep.

14:51 And I still go and see that gentleman thrilled to the state. Oh, yeah, yeah. He still owns a head shop. And he's a hippie at heart. I mean, he loves Kava, he loves kratom, he loves, you know, turmeric. And he's he's very all natural. But he says he can't put down the sweets. So that's where he gets all his weight because he's a chunkier guy. But I still go and see him from time to time because I the reason why I connected so much with him is because he knew what he was talking about. He was like, he was like, what's your ailment? And I said pain and he said OK I would suggest the Reds and I said what's I said I just got off opiates. I said what's the strongest red there is and he told me the main da.

15:42 So I started off with the the red main da and I'm still on it to this day. I've tried other strain and they just don't work as good on me as the red main da. Now I did have a bumpy Rd. with kratom switching vendors and not doing my due diligence was one of the ones that got caught up with the bad batch of salmonella and that yeah, I got salmonella and heavy metal poisoning. Wow, from a bad batch of kratom. And this was just the guy that was selling it Willy nilly in Florida when I was down there on vacation.

16:24 And I didn't add that my normal people, you've got to make sure that your vendor is third party testing for contaminant, for heavy metals first, Almonella for purity. Even extracts scare me. I don't need anything stronger. I don't, you know, I don't. I like what I'm taking now. It's affordable. That's the main thing. It's affordable. And yeah, my doctors know about it. All of my doctors and one doctor is giving me hoorah like yay. And that is my Ms. doctor. He says go for it. But he's a younger a younger doctor. Cause the doctor that diagnosed me with Ms. he retired about five years after I got diagnosed. So a new guy came in and he was younger and I told him I said look I take this plant called kratom and it helps me with my pain and my depression and my anxiety and he said that is amazing.

17:25 He said go for it. I said OK. But the other doctor that gives me the problem is my gastroenterologist because you have to have to drink plenty of water with kratom because it can get it can dry out your colon. So because I have Crohn's disease, which is the disease of the colon, and I have Ms. which can damaged the nerves that my colons depend on. Because right now I'm me and my doctor are trying to figure out because I've been dealing with a lot of Constipation here lately. And we're trying to figure out if the Ms. is causing it or is it the Crohn's because we don't know yet. Because they're afraid that I might have gastroparesis, which that means complete shutdown of the colon. It's just your colon muscles don't move anymore. But I haven't.

18:23 The thing about kratom. Are there withdrawal symptoms? Yes. But it's just like coffee. If you stop drinking coffee, what happens? You get a headache. I'll stop taking kratom. My pain comes back. You know, I feel a little on edge because it calms me down, but it's nothing like coming off opiates. Nothing at all. Now, each person different than that. That's my little disclaimer. I'm glad you mentioned that because, and I'm sure you get this, as we all do on social media, people get on there, they demonize the plant and they go on and on about how bad withdrawals are. And that is highly addictive. And with all that you've been through with narcotics, with addiction, with recovery and then consuming kratom, what do you say about that?

19:14 I'd say that there is a big difference between dependence and addiction. Now, dependence means that if your body depends on it to feel good, to feel normal, because that's what kratom does for me. It makes me feel normal. But addiction, you take it over an invisible line and you don't know where that invisible line is. So you have to keep your behaviors in check even when on kratom. That's why I tell the people that I've turned on to kratom. I said stick with the whole leaf. I wouldn't even mess with the extracts because it's just too strong. It's too strong. All you need is a little bit of this little of the loose leaf. Whole leaf powder or capsules and capsules are fine too, but. And the seven OH is not kratom.

20:08 Yeah, so say no to seven O as Misty Brown says, yeah, those seven OH, products, that's all you hear about now are these new products. To me, it just looks like a muddy grab. You know, it's it's new, it's synthetic, it's strong. They're going after people that are young, they're going after people who already have addiction issues because it's just a big muddy grab. But it's really sad because is synthesized so technically it's not kratom but they market it as kratom. Right, right. And it makes our whole leaf powder kratom look bad, which. Is terrible, but I've heard it's it's pretty dangerous too. Yeah, yeah. And the researchers are quite concerned about it, those that have been researching kratom and yeah, it's like the government needs to step in and do something about this seven.

20:55 OH, you know. Oh yeah, I think so too. But we know that the FDA doesn't want to do anything. I want to go back to when you first started you with kratom, you said that like immediately you saw results. Like was it day one that you just started seeing great results from using it? For me, it was because that's how bad my pain was. Yeah, you know, I would have so much pain in my knees. I mean, it took a little bit to kick in, but I stayed by my second or third dose that day because he told me to start off with just two doses. And I was like, I didn't feel anything after the second dose. So I waited a couple hours and then I took a third dose and and then I could feel the pain just lifting and it was amazing.

21:42 I could not believe it. But I just wish people will quit vilifying this plant and I'm so glad with that documentary came out the leaf of faith. Yes, such a good documentary that came out in, I think it was either late 2018 or maybe early 2019. I discovered it in 2019, back when it was a Netflix documentary. It's no longer on Netflix, but it's available on YouTube and I'll put a link to it in the show notes for this episode. But yeah, what do you think? Like for many of us in the community, that was our first experience hearing about kratom was from that documentary. But you were already consuming it. So did you find that that was really nice to have a documentary about to the public about the plant that you consume?

22:28 I was so excited. I was so excited because first of all, my parents, they didn't know what kratom was. They didn't, you know, they told me, well, opiate or opium is a plant too. And I'm like, gosh, so I had to explain to them. I was like, it's in the coffee family, mom and dad, you know, it's, you know, the only side effect that I've had with it is if I don't keep up with my water intake, I get constipated. That's it, you know, and if I don't take it, my pain comes back and I feel a little on edge. I'm not the happiest person, but I, I'm not like when I was in detox, I was running the halls.

23:12 My nerves were shot. I just wanted to walk out of that detox. But I was locked in because the detox here in North Carolina, they're mixed in with the mental health patients. And it's a little scary. There was a couple of scary people in there, but, you know, they're all just trying to get through life like I am. So, you know, and I wanted to go through a medically supervised detox because I knew they locked you in there because I've tried to get off of opiates before by myself and it just didn't work. So I knew I needed to be hospitalized for at least a week. But the doctor or the psychiatrist said that I was good to go after five days as long as I promised to go to the intensive outpatient program, which I did. And they drug tested you before every class to make sure you have it used and, you know, teach you about addiction and recovery.

24:09 And, you know, it really opened my eyes that you have to watch your behaviors. And and that goes with anything that's addictive, sugar, cigarettes, vaping, if you do something too much, everything in moderation in life, you know, I have a little bit of sugar, have a, you know, but don't go all in, you know, so. That's great. That's. Just yeah, everything in moderation. Another question I have for you is how would you compare the pain relief you got back when you were using opiates for for pain relief versus kratom for your pain relief? Good question.

24:49 When I was on opiates, I wasn't there. I wasn't present. If you take too much opiates, you nod off, you go to sleep. You're just not. You're a shell of a person. You just, but you love the feeling of that high and that it was rough getting off of it because you know, I've, I've done every experimented with drugs in the past and I've tried all the other stuff because I was a raver back in the 90s. So I've tried and dabbled in everything, but I always came back to opiates. And so that was my drug of choice. I just, but with kratom, it just makes me feel like me.

25:32 I feel present, I feel feelings again. It's just, it opens your eyes about what these pharmaceutical companies are doing. You know, 'cause like I said, the map programs for the maintenance drugs for people coming off of opiates. To me, in my opinion, I think trading one pill for another pill is that's their way of keeping you in the pharmaceutical realm when there's other alternatives out there. Yeah, I totally get that. And I hear that from a lot of people. When you started kratom, how did it end up like impacting like your day-to-day life?

26:13 I mean, because, you know, so many times people say they'll start using kratom for pain relief and then all of a sudden they realized like that their anxieties reduce. They don't feel depressed. Like it just lifts so much. It just does more than just help, for one thing. How? How was your experience with that? Well, yeah, when I first started I felt more energetic. This is when I was walking normal because now with my Ms., I've got a drop foot and I, I have to use a rollator to walk around now because that's just the nature of this disease. But when I caught my Ms. extremely early, so I had a good six or seven years of walking normal. So I worked my tail off.

27:00 Me and my husband owned a designated driving company where we took drunk people and their cars on. I felt like we were giving back to the community, you know, and kratom allowed me to do that because I could concentrate and I could, you know, because running a business isn't easy, especially when you're dealing with drunk people. But and, you know, and we got pretty, a pretty good profit margin off of running that company that we actually bought a party bus. And we had a party bus for about a good four or five years. And then here comes Uber and Lyft and they kind of killed our business, even though we had a niche where we took your car home because there's two of us, one drives your car and the other person follows in their car. So people loved it, but it was too much money because you had to pay two people, but with Lyft you only have to pay 1. So that kind of ruined my business. But that was the last thing I did until the stress from owning those two companies.

28:05 We had them for 11 years. The stress of those two companies kind of did my health in and my health started declining and my walking got worse. Because that's the main thing that bothers me with my Ms. is my walking because now I can walk short distances, but I can't walk long distances. So I have to use the wheelchair. But I try to get up and exercise every day because if you don't use it, you lose it. So I try to do something little each day and kratom helps me out it. It really does. But right now I'm on a break until I can figure out what's going on with my intestines, never my colon. So this is the drug, if sorry, not a drug. This is a plant.

28:53 You can stop and start and you'll be OK. You will be just fine. You might have a couple of uncomfortable days, but that's OK. It is nothing like an opioid withdrawal. So I kind of miss it because my pain is back in my knees right now, but but I got to do what's best for me. So right now I'm I've eased off of it. So I haven't taken it in three days because we're trying to get this figured out. Yeah, that makes sense. And yeah, it's good that you're doing that and not suffering through withdrawals as if it was an opiate, which you've been through. Yeah. And you you can talk first hand about versus social media, why I heard this and I heard that it's like, I'm going to listen to the person that has first hand experience, which in this situation is you telling us, you know, through your experience.

29:48 My next question is when you are normally consuming your Kratom, not not like right now on a break, but when you're currently, you know, consuming your kratom, what's your routine usually like? Is this like you're taking it every day or you're taking it multiple times a day? What? What is that like for you? OK, usually I wake up in the morning, I take just a little teaspoon in the morning with my coffee and I chase it down with it's called MCT oil. What it does is it helps nourish or hydrate your colon and it's it's a non flavored oil. So I chase it down with that and then some water, 'cause he got to make sure to drink a lot of water, 'cause, you know, my gut gets slower with kratom. But I do that.

30:35 And then usually about about 2:00 I'll dose again. And then before dinner I'll dose again and usually just a little teaspoon and that's all I need. And that's not much you you're not even considering a large amount my dose. Is 2 two teaspoons? You're like double. Yeah, because when I first started, yeah, when I first started, I was taking tablespoons and that's when I started. Yeah, that's when I started. I was talking to my counselor or my sponsor about it and she was like, we need to do the 12 steps again. She was like, I've noticed something a little different with you here lately. And sure enough, I had some more behaviors that popped back up and I was over consuming it thinking that it would make me feel better and it doesn't.

31:25 If you ever get the wobbles with kratom, it's not fun. Because when I hear these news reports saying kratom is a reason someone has passed away, it's usually malarkey. Because if you look at the toxic report or what do they call? Yeah, toxicity. Report, toxicity report, There you go. I can't remember the name. They usually have other drugs in their system and it could even be over the counter drugs. You know, you've got to be careful what you're taking with anything because when I first got cleaned, I was, I had no trust in doctors anymore. And I look up every medication I take.

32:08 I look at the side effects that I see how I act, you know, And I remember one time my, my Ms. doctor wanted to start me on DMT, which is a disease modifying drug. That's what slows down the progression of Ms. He wanted to start me on Baclofen, which is a muscle relaxer. And he wanted me to start on gabapentin for because I had really bad neuropathy in both feet. And I said, I said I'm not taking all of those drugs at once. I said there's no way because when you start taking any type type of pharmaceutical you want to be able to pinpoint which drug is doing what.

32:52 Like if like if Baclofen gave me Constipation then I knew it was the Baclofen that did it. And for the gabapentin that was the worst thing I could have ever gotten on because it made me dizzy. I would fall at least once a week because I'm a very high risk fall patient. Every time I'm in the hospital I have an alarm under me where I can't get up by myself or an alarm goes off and I've been hospitalized probably 4 times since. I've been diagnosed with Ms. since 2010. I love that we've connected on social media and how active you are with connecting with others and and just sharing your voice, being an advocate. So you do that because I see you on TikTok and you're using other social media, right?

33:45 Are you using that to connect with other kratom consumers? Oh yeah, mainly TikTok and Facebook because when I first started using kratom, I came across the AKA page and I met the woman who was renting it and she helped me out with every question that I had. So she helped me out. The people on Reddit helped me out. So it was just like it all came together at perfect timing. It was like, you know, God works in mysterious ways. Yeah, I really credit social media with helping me discover so many amazing people in our community because we're all on there talking about kratom and how much is helping us and then finding each other. I it's interesting how with the kratom gals I host with Misty Brown, Venus Escher, and Jennifer Gillis, we all met on X early last year, like early 2023. And I get on Tiktok last year and then I meet so many people over there that are fellow kratom consumers and people looking to learn about kratom from the pain community. Are you finding that on Tiktok as well where you like people see you talking about it and they have questions? Well, I really haven't.

35:02 I do have it on my profile that I am a kratom advocate like so just to have that on there just in case somebody has a question about it. And like what is that? But I found a lot of Ms. patients and a lot of Crohn's patients and, and a lot of chronic pain patients because one of one of my really good friends has CRPSCRPS is called the S disease, you know, the underlying disease because it is so painful. And she's one of the ones that I help try kratom. And she says it takes off the edge. She says it doesn't completely cure her pain because it's so deep, but it does help her and it does cut her back from the harder drugs where she doesn't need them. Yeah.

35:55 I'm really amazed at how well my pain level has been reduced from this plant, kratom versus all the high-powered opioids I used to take when I was in pain management. Oh, yeah. And that's one of the reasons why I'm such a loud, proud advocate for this plant because that's how it's completely changed my life because in pain management for nine years, taking all those opioids, while they helped, I still was in pain a lot. Like it helped some but not tremendously. And then I discover kratom and it's like I forget that I suffer from chronic pain. Like it helps my pain that much which is mind blowing. And another thing that is very important is don't take kratom with an opiate.

36:38 It's silly because they'll cancel each other out. It's just like, 'cause I've had surgeries, major surgeries, and they've given me, you know, like I'm pretty powerful. I don't want to name the drugs, but pretty powerful painkillers. I, I filled the script, I took it home and then I took my Kratom and it works so much better. And they couldn't believe how much quicker I got back on my feet because this was during a leg surgery. I had a leg and knee surgery, yeah. I've heard other people say the same. Thing 'cause you're not doped up on opiates, you know you can actually get up and start exercising instead of sleeping all day cause a lot of times those high-powered opioids will knock you out. Right.

37:32 So which is slowing down your recovery? That's such a great point. So I had a foot surgery about four years ago. So my kratom journey started 5 1/2 years ago. So I was already in my kratom journey. I had a scheduled foot surgery and the doctor was really great. She had a whole pain plan for me afterwards and and prescribed opiates. I didn't fill them. It was just, you know, an outpatient surgical procedure When I got home, made sure there's enough hours where I felt like the narcotics were on my system from being knocked out for the procedure. But then I went right back to my kratom and recovered very well. And same thing when I had my appendix out years ago as well.

38:13 I think we recover faster and better because, like what you're saying, we're not doped up and sleeping. You know, we're able to get the pain relief and also be active. Yeah. Move around. That's one of the great benefits with kratom I love is just that nice little energy boost you get. Yeah. And now the only thing that I can tell you that in my experience is if you have an abdominal surgery, you're going to take a couple months off kratom because you've got to let your stomach and your colon or whatever you had. Because I had a hernia repair this summer and I was off kratom for I would say at least three months. And then I had an ileus.

38:56 An ileus is a twisted bowel. So I had to go back under the knife that same week. So I had two surgeries back-to-back, and then I didn't have food for 3 1/2 weeks. Oh, I got really weak. Yeah, I got really weak 'cause I had to have bowel rest, which you get fed through a tube or an IV, and it made me so weak. And then I lost my ability to walk 'cause I was just so weak, 'cause I hadn't had food. I haven't had water. I couldn't have food. I couldn't have water, nothing. And then I went to a nursing facility for 23 days and worked my butt off and learned to walk again. So.

39:37 You've been through a lot. I know and I'm only 47. I'm like, but I, I, I understand elderly people 'cause my body is like an elderly person. Well, you have a great attitude with everything you've been through so. Oh yeah. I'm so glad you've come on this podcast to Share your story because these stories help so many people. And I'm sure there's some people listening to this right now, and it's giving them some hope with the things they're going they're going through right now. I have one last question for you. This is such a great interview. I really appreciate you spending time with me, Jenny, and sharing this knowing, yeah, you know a lot about kratom. You've been consuming it for a very long time now, knowing all the things you know about it.

40:21 What advice? I mean you, this is something you do do you do advise people that are just starting? But what? What advice do you give to someone to help them get started in their journey? OK, I always tell them less is better. That's number one. I said. You know, you don't want to get the wobbles as the worst feeling in the world, so I say less is better. Start off small and then if you don't notice anything after a couple doses, then you can possibly move up to a little bit more because when I started I was taking half a teaspoon and then I moved up to a teaspoon because I noticed it wasn't really working that much or no. I started off with capsules and then when I started the powder then I did the half a teaspoon because I didn't know, you know, how much was in a capsule.

41:11 And also, do you do diligence on the vendors you buy? I would recommend not to go to local smoke shops because the people behind the counter are just there to sell a product that's not their niche. They have D8 and they've that cava and they've got, you know, they've got, they're selling everything. Try to find a vendor that third party test and make sure to get a hard copy of their test and any responsible kratom vendor will have that for you on hand Just showed you that every time they get a batch in they third party test a little sample out of it because you don't want to go. What I went through with the salmonella and the heavy metal toxicity.

42:00 That was not fun, having the health department in my house. Oh wow. Because that, yeah, the local health department came over and interviewed me to see where it was coming from. Wow, Yep. Well, these are all great tips that you're sharing. I have a question because you mentioned the wobbles. How would you describe? Because people have asked me what what are the wobbles? My usual answer is you'll know. So you just want to you'll know. How do you like describe the wobbles to somebody? It's hard, right it? Is it's. Like, you know when you're in it, you know when it happens. It's like you're it's a little bit of dizziness and it's a little bit of hyperactivity.

42:43 That's what I noticed. And it depends on the strain that you're taking to you like the red is more sedative, the green is more uplifting. And I've had the wobbles on the green and the white strains, but not so much on the red. But I have had one time I had it on the red and that's when I was taking. I think I took a tablespoon and a half one time. It was from taking too. Much. That was a big mistake, Yeah. But all you got to do is just drink a lot of fluids, relax, lay down, take a nap, and when you wake up you'll feel OK.

43:24 Yeah, it goes away pretty quick. I liked your advice of staying away from smoke shops if possible because you're so right, it's usually just a person just working there that that is not. I mean you lucked out with it being an owner that really cared and was able to answer. But it's so rare that I hear that. And I just recently a few weeks ago had Cassie on the podcast. It was episode 51 talking about her recovery story and how she discovered kratom. And sadly she went to a smoke shop. She didn't know anything and the person at the counter just pointed to some capsules. She bought it not realizing there were extract capsules. So it was the powder extract. So she was taking that for a while. Finds my podcast on Spotify.

44:08 Here's that. And then finds the cratum gals and here. So it's talking about like, be careful with extracts that really you just want the whole leaf powder. And she was horrified to look at the package and realize, Oh my gosh, these were extract capsules. So it's like you really have to arm yourself with knowledge and know exactly what you're taking and make sure you don't start with extracts of any kind because it can be powder. It's not just those little bottles of liquid. I mean, there's extract powders and I know those are pretty popular in smoke shops, but you know, educating yourself and doing research, but still being careful on Google because Google has so much misinformation and propaganda. It does. I always tell people go to kratomanswers.org.

44:50 That is a great website the American Krame Association put out that has a lot of the science back to face the science, the facts of like what kratom is and the research behind it. I think that's a great starting point for anybody that wants to learn more about what exactly is kratom. Right. Yeah. And see, I didn't know it. They didn't have that website back then when I first started, and that's why I went to Reddit. And so I learned from the users because you're not going to learn from someone that's never used it, right? You got to learn from someone that has. Yeah, and they're so common on social media to get this. I heard so and so where I heard you. Like I had friends that went through. It's like, no, you want to listen to the people who've actually been through the things. And for me, it was some Facebook groups when I discovered kratom in 2019 and people that were sharing first hand experience with using kratom and that was where I got a lot of information and it was so helpful.

45:51 So it's important. That's why I put so much information out with this podcast with the Kratom Real Talk community that you're a part of with the Kratom Gals live stream series. I'm just trying to put out as much real and accurate information from those of us that are first hand consumers of the plant so people can get educated and make. Very welcoming to the outsiders because that's the one thing with the kratom community they're very protective of the plant and they kind of there's some snarky people on Reddit they will they would jump down you if you say that there's withdrawals because there are there are a little bit of withdrawals just like coffee just. Like coffee, it's like, yeah, exactly, exactly. It's that that level, you know, not opiate withdrawal level if you.

46:42 If you go through keto and you stop eating sugar, you get the keto flu. That's the same thing. Yeah. So whenever you stop a substance and that your body's depended on, it's going to have a little bit of woom in it. You just got to wait till. Your body adjusts. Yeah. Jenny, this been such a great conversation. Thank you so much for spending time and doing this with me. I really appreciate your time today. Thank you for listening. You can get more information at kratomstoriespodcast.com, including show notes from this episode.