Ep 54: Deborah Anderson is Living with Diabetes and Thriving with Kratom

0:00 It's so restrictive that now not only are you in physical pain, but you're an emotional and psychological pain. And it just a horrible existence. And kratom has made me feel like I, I'm actually human being. Like it said, it erases the pain so that, you know, it's not a silly an absolute, but it it takes you back to that place where it's like, wow, so this is like when I was 20 and I feel good. Welcome to Kratom Stories, a weekly podcast where we share stories of how this amazing plant has changed our lives. I'm your host, Madeleine Sklar. Each week I'll bring you a new episode featuring interviews with experts, advocates, and everyday people who've experienced the benefits of kratom first hand.

0:47 Join me as we dive deeper into the world of this botanical wonder and discover the amazing stories behind this incredible plant. The Kratom Stories Podcast is presented solely for educational purposes. Neither the podcast nor its host promote or endorse the use of kratom, a substance not yet regulated or approved by the FDA. The views and opinions expressed by guests are theirs alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the host or the podcast. The content is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified healthcare provider with any questions regarding the use of kratom. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to let you know about Kratom Real Talk. It's a new community for positive, uplifting discussions about the power of whole leaf kratom. If you'd like to be part of the conversation and learn more about this plate or contribute your knowledge, go to kratomrealtalk.com.

1:51 So I'm here with my good friend Deborah, who I brought on the podcast a while back when she was brand new to kratom. She was like 10 days into her kratom journey. And I said, Deb, you got to come on the podcast and share this short journey you've been on because I thought it was amazing. And it's been a while now. It's been almost a year. And I thought I should bring you back to do a, where are you now in your kratom journey? So, Deborah, thank you so much for coming back again. Thank you for having me. You know, you're doing this wonderful intro and all I can think of is, Oh no, do I have lipstick on my teeth at all? I didn't check. Oh, this is gonna be a fun conversation.

2:32 A good reason to always have a mirror right by your laptop to make sure well. The good thing is an audio podcast. I tried to put some video clips out in social media, but if I do some social media clips I promise I will not show that. OK, that's great. Thank you. Hey, I'm I'm real. I can't. That's that's me. There you go. Yeah, I'm the same way. I love it. I had you on back in January 2024 for episode 11 of the Krame Stories podcast, and I was so excited to have you on back then because you and I have known each other for a long time. Like I think by now, maybe a couple of decades, we go way back in the music business.

3:15 You know, you're a musician. I ran a very large online community for female musicians for a very long time. And so you and I have a long history with that. But then also you and I are techie. So in our business world, we always cross paths with that with digital marketing, social media, live streaming and podcasting. And it's so interesting that almost a year ago, I am casually talking about kratom to my Madeleine Sklar community, which is completely separate from this in the kratom world, in my business world, digital marketing and social media marketing. I've been doing that for, you know, for decades, known for that. And I just happened to just finally put out there, by the way, I consume this plant, it's called kratom. It helps me with my chronic pain, blah, blah, blah. I was not really comfortable talking about that in my business world for a really long time. But because I was launching this podcast, I thought I, I want to talk about this a little bit, not really thinking, oh, this is going to, you know, enlighten some of my friends and colleagues.

4:22 We were doing, you know, the Twitter now known as X audio space called spaces and you hear me mention kratom and you don't tell me for like a week, but you I apparently went and did some research, bought some, tried it, and then all of a sudden you get back to me. Oh my gosh, Madeleine, I tried kratom. This is amazing. I'm like, let's get you on the podcast. I want to hear all about this. So I'm still blown away by that story. Maybe we should kind of start with that and have you kind of let's revisit that and then catch up to where you are now. So this is almost a year ago. I'm doing my audio space talking about the business stuff like you and I do, and you'd come on to listen and hang out and chat and you hear me talk about kratom.

5:06 Tell it, take it from there. Like tell us exactly what happened and what'd you do? Well. I was going to say I feel like you're a godsend, but see, I already know Madeline, you are a godsend. I mean, in music business, but most of all friends. So I mean, you are you're definitely, you know, hug, hug and you're a godsend. But that day I I mean, I can't believe it that I think it was we talked about the topic is live streaming or something. And I can't remember if you'd sent out a note that Hey, you know, we're talking about live streaming. So I made a special. Hey, I'm going to make sure I'm there. And like you said, it wasn't planned. It just you happen to mention Kratom while we're talking about live streaming on your business and there in the X space. But I really felt like like it was meant to be or something because you know, we've been talking for some time.

5:50 My husband and I have been talking about moving and it sounds so petty, but when you're dependent on Oxy, for example, to be out of pain and you can't even make it one day because you can't function in pain. I mean, it's like I remember trying to write A blog post and when I'm in pain, I can't even it's like you can't write a sentence because it's just such excruciating pain. And I thought, what am I going to do when we move to another state? Like what do I do? Go get an airplane ticket, go to that state, go find a doctor, get that doctor to somehow hopefully prescribe painkiller. I mean, that's a feat in and of itself. And then come back home and then meet with the doctor at home. But then they're going to know about the other doctor and they're not going to want 2 prescriptions going and then still get the oxy here.

6:35 I mean, it sounds silly, but when you're or it sounds like you're just a rabid drug addict. But I mean, when you can't function even a day because you're in so much pain that otherwise you're just going to curl up in a ball and not, you know, I thought, all right, I can make it. Maybe 3 days. I can make it. And then you said this and I thought, oh wow, I can actually live like a human being. I can be free. I can, we can move. We can, we can live because I hated to be tied. It's it feels like you're a dog on a leash and that you're tied to a doctor, a specific doctor or a specific that you're you're imprisoned and that you have no life because you can't function without pain reliever of some sort. And you can't even move to another house in another state because you can't last one day.

7:18 So it's like you gave me my life back. Not only the pain free part of it, but just to be able to live life without having to answer to a doctor saying, oh, we're not going to give this to you unless you haven't had any alcohol at all at your last birthday because we'll be able to tell even though it was six months ago, not that bad. But I mean, you don't pee in the cup and check it. And I mean, it's just, it's so restrictive that now I'm not only are you in physical pain, but you're an emotional and psychological pain. And it just, it's a horrible existence. And kratom has made me feel like I, I'm actually human being. Like it said, it erases the pain so that you know, it's not a silly an absolute, but it it takes you back to that place where it's like, wow, this is like when I was 20 and I feel good.

8:03 So many of us feel that way too, because I have found with Kratom and so many other people that suffer from chronic pain, we feel like it brings us back to our old self before we suffered with chronic pain because it helps the pain so much, but also gets you out that headspace of always being in that place where you're so consumed by it. You're uncomfortable, like you're saying, trying to do a blog post. I mean, I could totally relate because it's, it's just hard to work and do things when you're suffering. And even when you are in pain management, you're getting the pain medications. It's not always that helpful. And like you said, you're tied to a doctor. And same. I felt the same way too. Like you feel like you can't move, you feel like you can't go anywhere because you got to be able to find someone who would take that doctor's place and help take care of you and give you that quality of care that you deserve.

8:53 And it's amazing to me that a plant can completely disrupt that and put you on a path to Wellness, happiness, and living a much better version of your life. Well, I mean, you know, talking about doctors and stuff and just say I don't want to if anyone's listening to like my diabetic real podcast, I say things. I'm not against all doctors in the world, but I do think that there should be a little more balance as far as we should treat people nice. I think that's what I'm trying to say is, is no shaming of people, including the whole oxy epidemic and saying, Oh, no, you're a drug addict because you took one oxy pill and the whole thing. But like in the pee in a cup thing where I went in and I was I was tested and I hadn't had any alcohol in like 18 months and any but yet I was accused of drinking alcohol. I did have some cough syrup, but that was like 4 days before and I guess that can show up as a positive for alcohol. But the there was something, it turns out that because of my diabetes, you know, you've heard of this thing where it's like Brewers whatever, where it can show up as having alcohol or yeah, and I don't think I have that. But there is something that turns out that because of the diabetes, it can show up that there's alcohol, even though I swear I didn't have any for 18 months. But my doctor really likes me.

10:06 She sent in this other gal that just reamed me up. I literally walked out of there in tears because it's like, is this, is this worth it? That not only I'm going in here to try to get pain relief for physical pain, I did what I was supposed to. I didn't have anything to drink. I peed in a cup. They checked it and now they're yelling at me for something. I did not do it. Just, you know, and kratom, there's the plants not yelling at me. So that's really a good thing that the kratom is not yelling at me. I love that the plant is not doing that because it's, it's supposed to be doing and, and giving you a, a better, you know, fuller life. I'm so glad looking back that I mentioned Kratom, even though I never really felt comfortable talking about my pain issues in my business community.

10:54 I always felt like business and personal should be separate. So even though I've suffered from chronic pain, severe chronic pain for almost 2 decades now, I just did not really feel comfortable bringing it, bringing it up in any of my business stuff. Now, if I'm with, you know, business colleagues and it's an extended, like maybe you're going to a conference together and maybe you're sharing a hotel room or something where it's more of an intimate thing, I feel like, OK, I got to let them know because they're going to be seeing me popping pills. If it's a casual thing, I can sit here and take my meds and nobody would ever know the difference. So I never felt like I had to talk about it. But when you're traveling or just spending a lot of time together with other colleagues, I always felt like, OK, I'm going to have to let them know.

11:40 I do suffer from chronic pain. I'm just taking my, my pain medicine, you know, no worries. I'm just, I don't want you to think I just keep popping pills because I'm, you know, having issues with drugs. But I just always kept it separate. But there was just something about that X space you and I were in. I think there was like back in December, it was like some like around the holidays, I think. So we're coming up on a year. And I just thought, you know what? Because a lot of it was because I had the new podcast, this podcast was getting ready to launch or I think it had just launched. So I thought I'm just going to mention it And I just didn't know what kind of reaction. I just had no idea that like it would cause you to go and research it further and then go buy some and not only, you know, you went out and bought some, you bought it from somebody.

12:25 I know trade industry and somebody, you know, from the business world that I kind of knew in the business world, but not really. And it's like, so when you started talking about, you know, where you bought your Kratom and I was like, Oh my gosh, what a small, small world we live in. So we definitely have to have people listen to your first episode, episode 11. I'll, I'll link to it in the show notes because you tell so many interesting stories in that. Are you still consuming Kratom through that company? I do when I order it, it's just I, I have to be honest, like, well, not like I would say that I have to be honest. Like what am I doing if I don't say I have to be honest the rest of the time I'm lying. But no, it's just, it's just a phrase. It's like but I do use the pills, the ones you recommended from Ether. Is it?

13:09 Is it? Pronounced yeah, I'm sorry, say pills and then you start thinking oxy. Pills or something? Tablets. Tablets that would be more more correct, but is it ether or ether? Ether, Ether. Pronounced ether. Botanicals and I have a link to that and on my website, it's one of a handful of vendors that I've personally research, fully gotten to know the people behind them and purchase them myself for my personal kratom consumption. So I'm only going to recommend the ones that I use that helps me in my chronic pain. And so Ethan Botanicals has been one of my favorite for several years because they do those press tablets. And just to clarify, it's not those new 7OH tablets everybody's hearing about. That's like a whole new who wave a products that have come out that are synthesized is taking kratom extracts, which are already potent and synthesizing it further to make it way more potent to the point that it's basically an opioid. And they're calling it, you know, is taking the seven hydroxymetragynine alkaloid and making it crazy strong. But because it comes from the kratom plant, the mitrogyny, they are calling it a kratom product and they really shouldn't be calling it kratom.

14:21 So just know that whenever I'm to the point where I always clarify this if I talk about tablets because people are being led. To. These similar H tablets like in the smoke shops are pushing them really hard right now. They're expensive, they're crazy strong and they could be addictive. So I it is, and we hope that you know, this gets resolved that they can't keep calling it Kratom. But what I like is what you're talking about the ether botanicals they have. They do have some extract tablets. I don't do that. Just the regular whole leaf kratom tablets, which is basically the powder, but in a tablet form and I use their powder too. I like those tablets for on the go. They're so great for that.

15:02 But I'm glad that you you've been using the tablets because it's such an easy way to consume Kratom and it doesn't have the bad taste. I just, I got lazy and it was like, oh, I'll just, you know, for a week I'll just use them all the time instead because I used to just use them at night. Like if I got up and I couldn't sleep and too much pain, then I would grab them because otherwise you get up and you use the, the powder form. Then I'm too awake and I already suffer from, you know, getting having trouble going back to sleep. So that way you can just pop the tablets and you go back to sleep. Well, so that I got a little bit lazy and it's like, well, I'll just splurge, you know, for the week and I'll just use the tablets and presents 2 weeks. And then it's like, well, I'll just go on the website and I'll just make up for it and order a whole bunch of them. And, and so I, I think I haven't used the powder form and probably, oh, I don't know, four months because I just keep using.

15:50 The tablet. I just love them. Yeah. Oh, they're. So. I mean, I still have the Mason jars. I love that you recommended that. That's great. So I still have my powder and the Mason jars. And when I do order, I order from now. I forgot it. Oh, and Wade's, I still order from Wade when I do order. Yeah, Kratom family. I was like family something Wade's family. But hi, Wade. Thank you. Wade. I'm sorry, but yeah, so I order, I order from them when it's the powder form, but otherwise I've been ordering the tablets and that's what I've been used and I I watch for. And I learned this from you mad. But I always watch for the sale. So I try to go for the 40% off. And then of course, I'm ordering so much that then I get the the customer loyalty points. Yeah, but I'm done.

16:37 Then I've got 40% off with those and I always just go for, I mean, I might be spending like 300 or so at a time, but then, then I'm getting a whole bunch of them at once and can't remember what combination. It's like I've got obviously the, the 1000 pills. I'm trying to remember what the combination. There's a certain combination. I, I sit and play with the calculator just as a tip if anyone wants to do it, but you play with the calculator in the, in the shopping base, the shopping bag or shopping cart. You play with it and watch the discount to see what combination comes up for the amount that you want. And I think it ends up being like two of the, it's not as obvious like where it's 1000 and then 500 might be 1500 and then 125 or something. It's an odd combination that ends up being exactly the amount that I want to spend.

17:19 But but you can sit and play with it and remove bags. Add two of one and. Add figure it out. Until you get the amount you want to spend. I always watch for their sales too and I do recommend the tablets for people new to kratom because it's so easy. The powder is messy, it tastes bad. I wish tablets were out back when I first started kratom and I had discovered them because I probably would have never done powder. I would just do the tablets. But the only thing is the tablets are more pricey so I'm used to the powder. What I do is I buy both their powder and tablets. I watch for when they're having a sale. I'll have a link to it in the show notes if anybody, and they do have sample tablets for free. I'll put a link to all that in the show notes if anybody wants to check it out. But I'm starting to when I talk to people new and they're coming to me asking me like where should I buy this? What do you recommend and asking me all the questions I'm starting to tell people try the tablets first because it's so easy.

18:15 I mean, yes, it's a little pricier, but when you're new, you just want to see if this stuff even works and you want don't want to have to deal with a mess of powder or you know, the bitter taste of of the kratom when you make a tea or do the toss and wash. So I've been telling people to start with that. And then once you find what works for you, you could always just do the powder version because literally they're tablets. You can crush up a tablet and it is their powder. There's no fillers, There's nothing I did and I love that about Youthub. I'm surprised more kratom companies don't do a tablet version but. It's surprising. I want to. Yeah, I'm definitely curious. Well, so let's start. Let's kind of back up a little bit to like just your chronic pain issues. We want to deep dive into it because people can go listen. I'll link to your previous episode to get the longer version.

19:02 But why don't we talk a little bit about like, what are the chronic issues you deal with and how is kratom helping it? I think that my main issue has to do with the diabetes that one now I think my what's that? My neurologist, I'm trying to remember which, you know, I talked to so many doctors that try to figure out which doctor said what, but I had and I believe I said this in the other, the other episode, 120 seizures. I think after that I stopped counting. Fortunately, I'm seizure free now for like going on three to 3 1/2 years, whatever it is now you can go back the other episode and then like add almost a year to that or you know, whatever. But so the, it's kind of a combination and I won't, I don't have to go and I have diabetes and I have epilepsy.

19:43 So seizures don't hurt people, but falling from the seizure, you know, breaking legs 3, all that stuff. So I have bunged up my body. I'll just think about 120 falls and maybe a couple of them were with the bed, but most of them are hitting floors hitting, desks hitting walls hitting. I think I broke a door one time. Oh my. Goodness. I've done the house some damage, but then the house has done me some damage too. So so that all comes with some issues, but mostly the on the diabetes and it's the nerve damage the like. Now I don't this part of it, I haven't researched entirely, but the, I almost said diabetic retinopathy, but that's the eyes, that's diabetic and they don't hurt.

20:25 My eyes don't hurt fortunately. But then the diabetic neuropathy, and this is where I disagreed with my neurologist. I was in for a seizure study and he says, well, then, then you don't feel anything. I definitely can feel my feet. I feel too much as far as my feet. So he's like, well, and I guess that's the neuropathy where you have less feeling whatever. I don't know what it's called. I just know that whatever pain I have in my body is the same pain I used to have as a little kid, like with my blood sugar went high. That's the kind of pain that I used to only get when I had high blood sugar. Now I have it all the time and it's like times 100. So that's why I say, I think it's whatever you call it. I don't know what the medical term is for. Or maybe they don't have medical term. Maybe it's not diabetic neuropathy.

21:06 I don't know. But I think it has something to do with nerve endings because it used to just be like in my legs, but now it's the same pain all throughout my body. And I think it has to do with just having diabetes for the number of decades. I mean, I don't get my age, but you can probably guess like, you know, four or five decades of diabetes, it's going to do some nerve ending damage. And like I say on my podcast, for those people being diagnosed with diabetes, with type 1 diabetes now, you're in a great place. I mean, OK, that sounds wrong. And I say, oh, yeah, we have diabetes. I don't mean it that way, but as far as technology, the insulin pump, you know, all the stuff that's out there, you've got a great future as far as diabetes goes. You've got all the tools to have a wonderful life. But when I was diagnosed in the 70s, now you can, you can do the math and I'll just I'll let you do the math on that one.

21:51 But but they didn't have that. I mean, they didn't, they weren't even doing blood tests. So, you know, other than than doing a pee test. And that was kept telling you what your blood sugar. Well, let's even tell you what your blood sugar was. It was telling you what the measurement was as far as urine, not to get gross, but was like two hours ago. You know, what good does that do is first what you're what you're managing. So when I was diagnosed not to complain, that's all we had. So the difference between when I was diagnosed in 76 and 1985 was a whole world of change because by 85, we're definitely doing blood tests at home. And then from there, I mean, it's almost like every decade the technology for diabetes was it was doubling or quadrupling or 10 times better.

22:32 I mean, the stuff that I've seen in my lifetime as far as diabetes management is phenomenal. But that first decade from 76 to 85 or even 76 to 80 was, it was like non existent. It's like, do the doctors realize there's diabetic people out there? You know, So you know, I don't blame anyone or anything like that. I'm not, it's not a complaint. It's just obviously my body had damage during that first ten years and there wasn't. It's just, it's about when I was diagnosed. Nothing can be done to change that. It's just my body now is suffering. You know the ramp. Of. When I was diagnosed and there's nothing that can be undone. But to me that to me, I'm representative of the fact that I'm still alive.

23:14 Because you know, I think I told you in the last broadcast where the pharmacist said you're the oldest, I you're the oldest type one I've had. It's like, is that is that a good thing? Or, you know, it's like you're so healthy, you're so alive. It's like, OK, that's good. But I, I forget to vote for everyone that, you know, that's after me, that look, you can live like a normal person. You have all this technology that's to your benefit and you have Kratoms. So if I do. Have. Anything you, you know, there's hope. That's what I want to be as a beacon for hope for people coming up. That's amazing, how is kratom helping you with living with diabetes? I feel like it. I keep, you know, I keep saying helps me to feel like a normal person, but that's assuming that I don't feel like a normal person. But I mean, okay, I guess wait, I'd make sure that I didn't have my Oh, I do OK, I was like, where'd I put my pump? It's on my bra and I'm sensor out of the visual. It's like I wore I wore my belt just so I wouldn't have to grab it from my bra.

24:11 But that see that I'm sharing that because that is life being a diabetic. And I know guys don't wear bras, but it's like, all right, what am I going to attach to? And and most guys can stick it on a belt, but it's like we women, if we're going to wear and I had that in one of the episodes, we're going to wear a dress or something. You have to attach it to something. So it's like, Oh, I'll just attach it to the bra because it's it's right there. But I did for anyone listening and not seeing the video, I did stay closed the whole time, all the time reaching up and doing that. So but yeah, I mean, if you want, you're spending life walking around with a device that obviously is not considered what normal people do because they don't have to walk around. So I guess when I say that haven't trying to live a life that's normal, maybe there's a better word for that, but more standard or something. The way most people live and most people are not living with a device attached to their bra.

25:01 So kratom helps me to in the grander scheme of things, live life more normal as far as a pain free. And to me, it's a part of that, like I said, grander scheme as far as being balanced and being able to be pain free. And along with the other tools like the insulin pump, like like insulin for that matter, it's maybe my body doesn't produce insulin, but through the medical technology I can have insulin coming in through insulin pump. Well, kratom is my pain relief. So now I can be like I'm 20 and feel normal, feel alive and feel like I can get stuff done. I can clean my house, I can write A blog post, I can do live stream. I can do 2 podcasts instead of 1 and maybe eventually all 7.

25:41 So. You're like me. It's like more and more and more. So many things I want to do. And because of kratom, we feel better. So we feel like we can do it. Yep. Yeah. So in addition to the pain relief, do you feel like kratom helps with other things? You know, so many people say I get the energy boost or the mood lift and just, you know, oh, I don't suffer from anxiety or depression anymore that I used to take medication for. It's always interesting that people have other results they get from the plant other than just those seeking pain relief. Probably as I hadn't really thought of it that way, but probably because it that's a good point. I should, I should think to sit down and analyze that, but I think the pain was just so debilitating that it was like when I was in so much pain.

26:24 Which overtakes everything. Yeah. When we live in that chronic pain state, it overtakes our whole life. Because without the pain I, I am higher energy and I'm happy and I'm so it's like without the pain, I feel like I'm myself and that's already not depressed. So I'm happy, higher energy and getting stuff done. So I guess I hadn't noticed that it necessarily made me happier or higher energy because to me it just it removed the pain. So I'm myself. Right. Well, yeah, and that's how I feel, too. Well, I do not suffer from depression. I mean, going through, you know, chronic pain back in the day and being in pain management and always suffering and always feeling like the meds are OK, but it's never enough.

27:04 It puts you in a state of just like, you feel like you got a black cloud over your head and you're always just, you know, have a form of depression. But I'm not talking about, like, severe depression where you're getting medical intervention. And so I feel better physically, which then lifts my mood and makes me feel, it sounds like you're like me, where you just overall feel better because of this plant. But there's actually people I've talked to that are taking it for chronic pain. But then they're like, yeah. And I feel so much better now. I'm not even taking my anxiety medicine anymore. I'm not taking my medicine, you know, for depression or like, like, being that they were taking a variety of meds for a variety of things.

27:46 But it seems like with a lot of people, they at least get like an energy boost, freedom, which is what I feel. I definitely feel a little bit of an energy boost, like like a cup of coffee. I drink so much Diet Coke that probably and Michael just bought a soda machine that you can that we can make soda home so. Well, this is a perfect time to segue into the whole food thing because when I had you on the first time on episode 11 of the Kratom Stories podcast, we got into quite the discussion of you. You were brand new to kratom again. You were like 10 days in your journey and you and your husband were working up all kinds of concoctions of like, how can we use this kratom powder in food? And I always remembered before the story of Michael making kratom quesadillas.

28:34 Which I've. Never heard in my 5 1/2 years being a pregnant consumer, I've never heard anybody try that. But it's interesting hearing like how people have tried incorporating it with food. You don't hear it too often. I don't think it works really that great with food. But you were telling us all kinds of interesting and the teas you were made, you're making all kinds of drinks and stuff. So I'd love to hear now that we're almost a year later, are you still trying different drinks? Have you kind of settled? You said. You have tablets, you know, I think the only thing on that one that's changed other than I've settled and we're not experimenting. I think Michael stopped too. He's just, he's like this just looks like dirt. And then and then I have this other thing where I have bladder teeth because I'd also tried different medicines that my urologist.

29:20 And I'm sorry guys, I'm just giving you way too much information. So if it's too much, you just, you know, come back later and listen, you give me some medicines and mostly for pain unrelated that the kratom wasn't working for. And the urologist gave me some medicines and they had side effects. Like actually one was starting to cause me to have seizures. Like this isn't going to work. And I'm thinking, well, if kratom works, there's got to be a better solution. So I found this stuff called Bladder T on Amazon. So my husband's teasing me. He goes, so you've got the kratom looks like the dirt, and now you've got the stuff that looks like lawn clippings. He goes, why don't you just go out in the backyard? And you could probably just, you know, just eat from the backyard and you'd be fine, Like because I'm not sure which stuff to eat and I don't want, you know, the dog Doo Doo mixed. It'll be bad.

30:08 It's like, yeah, so I have an interesting because now I have the bladder tea that actually is tea and I I did not try mixing the Kratom in with that, that that's kind of nasty enough. Yeah. You know, I have experimented with like my morning kratom. You know, I do the swamp water tea and just I don't do it like a big drink because I don't I'm not a tea drinker. I remember you were telling this last time that you were making, you know, some teas and stuff because you like to drink tea. I just heat up a little bit of water, mix in my powder, add some juice, drink it really fast. I was trying to slam it right down. But in the morning, I like using like, you know, some of the green powder, not kratom green, but like, you know, the ones where it's like freeze dried fruits and veggies kind of, you know, like the healthy stuff like you put in smoothies. And my routine has been adding my green powder and turmeric. And so for a while, like I want to incorporate that into my morning routine.

31:04 I mean, these are things normally you put into a smoothie, but I want to like, OK, can I put this in my morning kratom swamp water? So I was doing that for a while. The good thing about the green powder is a Berry flavor and it's like, and it's like veggies and fruits and vitamins and stuff. So it tastes pretty good. But turmeric, I do not like the taste of it all that is 1 spice. I do not like, I don't like it at all. I think it's like a spice right in that kind of technical spice. It definitely smells like 1. So for a while I was just adding all that into my morning kratom and then it dawned on me because I'm used to the kratom taste like I can drink my kratom swamp water doesn't bother me anymore. But that turmeric, it makes me want to puke every time I consume it.

31:46 It's so gross. But I know it has a lot of great health benefits. I feel like I am getting the benefits. So it dawned on me recently like why don't I put the powder in the Blake pipes? Why don't I just like ah, take the turmeric. Here's here was my thinking. It's like, OK, I got the green powder that everybody wants. I'll be sure to link in the show notes. I I get the green powder from Whole Foods. I think you can order it online too. But I really it's a brand I've been using for like probably 12 years now. Is it really good for, you know, if you're into health stuff like me? So my thinking was why don't I put why don't I make a blade Pape with the turmeric powder and the Super green powder combined not mixing up and I scoop 1 then scoop the other so they're basically one on top of each other in the blade Pape. My thinking is the rare occasion that the blade Pape doesn't go down and it opens up in your mouth or in your throat. If I taste that much turmeric I will definitely puke so I thought.

32:42 But if I have the green powder with it, maybe it won't beat so bad, you know? That's. Been my logical thinking and I'm pretty good at taking blade pain. So I think I've only messed up like once where it didn't go down and and then you're just tasting everything you know the kratom powder. So my morning routine is I still do my kratom swamp order and then right afterwards I do a blade Pape with the green powder and the turmeric powder and I just down it really quick. And so far I've done pretty well with that. It hasn't been too gross. I just don't like the taste of turmeric. But you know, when you're trying to take healthy supplements, a lot of supplements taste bad. You know, there's a lot of them that just have a nasty taste. I don't. Know of any that taste?

33:23 Even the cranberry pills don't taste good. Yeah. Yeah, so I. Forgot about that blade paint. Yeah, I when I have been doing the powder, that's the most probably 80% of the time I use the the Blake Papes. I remember you in the last episode you you said that you tried the Blake Papes. I think you had just tried them. I think I'd just gotten them like I'd ordered them, but it was still too new and I just started. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Which is. And it really just shows that you hear me casually talk about kratom and then you do a bunch of research. I always recommend everybody do their own research, you know, learn about this and there's a lot to learn with this plant. This is not a simple plant. There's so many little things about it. But I had also started back then when I had you on the podcast, my Kratom Real Talk Community, which is a free online private kratom community for people to come on and talk about kratom and not deal with censorship we get on social media and not worry about an algorithm on social media. It's kind of like a Facebook group is how I look at it. And you join that.

34:29 And I had so much. I have a ton of information in there for people new to kratom. So I'm sure you found a lot of that helpful early on. I know I had videos like how to use blank papes. I have videos of me, here's how I use it. I have like a 7 minute video walking through everything so that people that are learning, you know, can see from somebody first hand experience of using something like that. So I hope you found all that helpful in there because I've really geared a lot of information in there for people brand new to Craneham. But now you've been like almost a year in, you're probably feeling like an expert. Well, it definitely helped watching, I think. Did I say I tried it and it worked really well the first time I used it and then the second one didn't or something. I went back and watched your video. I'm like, I need to pay more attention because it's like my fingers were wet.

35:20 The second one I did so then it stuck and then started to disintegrate or something. And it's like, Oh my God, it's in my mouth right away before it disintegrates all over every. And I was doing it. I do it at my desk. Like I have this little spot, but I, I don't have a lot of space there without it going onto the computer keyboard, which I don't want. I think one time I opened up the bag to get ready to do it and it like blew all into my face. I'm like, OK, great. This is all over my computer keyboard. This is like all over my desk. It's like, this is not the place to do it. You know you should do it in the kitchen in between. The kitchen I don't because you never know if the you're going to make a mess with the powder. So I always stick to the kitchen. To be really careful and I have the special bag for it so I can pop the bag up.

36:05 It's like an accessory bag for a computer accessory bag. So like everything is my scales in there. I have everything like perfectly organized and I thought I'm not going to make a mess. But then the whole thing was because I remember I mentioned it, I think in X space and y'all were laughing like, Yep, that's happened. We've had, you know, it's your first. You got a face full of kratom. And it's like, Yep. But fortunately I had one of those keyboard covers and it was actually didn't have any holes in it or anything. So I was able to just pull the keyboard cover right off the keyboard and my my keyboard was rescued. But it's like I had to apologize to my computer. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to feed you, that was for me. Oh, that's funny, I love that. Oh man. So what's your current kratom routine like these days?

36:48 How often are you consuming it? What kind do you like to consume? Like which color and strain? I like the Super elephant. Is it super the green? The green is still the yeah, super elephant. I think I'm just combined two different ones together. And then and then there's the elephant green. Yeah. I have them labeled on my Mason jars. But pretty much when that comes in I'm I'm dumping it into my little Mason jars right away and then have on my my shelf. But for the most part, I'm doing the, the tablets probably since July, I've almost exclusively been doing the tablets. And then I have that in a little container that I, I keep trying to make sure I used to have it in the bags that they come in, like then it would sit on the floor because I want to make sure they're accessible.

37:33 So I have it right by my chair, the computer. But problem is, I have the dog's treats right? Now. I'm like, if I don't get that thing zipped up, the dog is because she's really sneaky. She'll Trudy will just go over there and she'll stick her her face into her dog treats and then start eating her dog treats so that she's going to go over there and stick her vase into my into my kratom and start eating my kratoms. So some vendors sell kratom for dogs like apparently it's a thing, you know, kratom for dogs for pain and stuff there and they've been do researchers have been researching it with dogs too. I just. Don't want to spend that much money. I love my dog. Like she'll like chow down, you know, like a whole mouthful of these kratoms.

38:16 Like so no, I have something that's kind of like Tupperware. It's really well sealed so I just make sure. That. Have that and then that can move. It's small and I should have brought it over here, but it's small enough that I can just go from room to room. So at night I keep it in the bedroom and then just bring it in the office. And when I was counting out like how many tablets and, and Michaels, like how many, you know, accidentally kill yourself, you're taking some tablets and said no. The nice thing about the tablets is you can actually count them. You know, I'm counting 24, so I'm actually counting them out so. Well, I think the reason why people you can because like when I do the the ether tablets was the for me. What's the equivalent of my usual 2 teaspoons of powder is 12 tablets.

38:57 And if I was doing capsules, it'd probably be a lot of capsules. I don't do capsules though, but people outside of the of kratom users, they look at that and go, Oh my gosh, that's a lot. 12 tablets. What what are you doing? But a pill is synthesized to be so that you just take one, right? Everything is in packed into that one. But what we're consuming is a plant, you know, a whole new powder like with ether, it is literally the powder that is pressed with a crazy amount of pressure to make those tablets. But if you crush up those tablets, that equals your powder you would normally consume. So I know a lot of people don't understand, you know, that are not cream consumers, Like why do you take so much of this? But that's it's just not the same thing as taking a pharmaceutical pill.

39:44 Right. It's just a form of measurement and it's I take more than 12, but I take quite a few. But I haven't had. I've only ever once had the. What is it The creative? Machine the. Wobbles, wobbles, that's what it is and it wasn't on the tablets it was on. Can't remember what I'd done but I I mean I measure it but I wasn't using the scale at the time and I didn't did something. Sometimes some vendors might have a a strain that's stronger, you know, with the kratom family, with Wade, you know, he has some that are low. Like he has a stronger green that is a little too strong. Like if I like if I use it I can't do my regular dose because it's a bit stronger. That might be what I did is use that one because it was, yeah. It might have been something like that, but it's so interesting because when I first started kratom and people said about talking about the wobbles, I'm like, what are the wobbles? And it's really kind of hard to explain, but if you have the wobbles, you know, I think that's the best thing to put it like you'll know when you have the wobble. I had it one time because I wrote to you and I had, it's like, I think that was the wobbles because it was like I just had to go lay down.

40:46 It wasn't, it wasn't a seizure at all, but it was something like I was shaky, but it was something that wasn't a seizure, but it wasn't, it wasn't really good either. It's like if you have too much caffeine, it's just that little bit of just kind of, you know, little like you're just a little too much, you know, and, and the thing about kratom is you don't want to ever take too much because you can't like you just do a little and just go. That's why we would say go low and slow when you're first starting, because if you take too much, either going to get the wobbles where you just feel, you know, just a little too much of it might be a little shaky. Just depends on what you took and how your body reacts. But if you take a whole lot, you'll throw up, you know, And so it has that built in mechanism so that you don't die from it. You're not going to OD from it like a narcotic. You know, you take narcotics, you take too much, you OD, you stop breathing and you die.

41:43 And kratom. Kratom does not cause you to stop breathing. Exactly. That's good. I got a little bit scared when I started the wobbles. I thought, Oh no, here comes a seizure. And I mean, not that I but see the fact that I could get scared with the way seizures happen. And I think I probably said this before, so if there's a repeat, but the way seizures happen, they're tonic clonics, you're going unconscious. You know, when people say, well, did you know you had a seizure? No, because I was unconscious. But I mean, the best way I can explain it is, it's, if you think, uh oh, you say, uh, and then by the time you get to, oh, you're already unconscious. Or I said, I shouldn't say you, but I am. So if I'm going to say, hey, Madeline, and I'm trying to say, uh oh, oh, I'm already, I'm already gone. So the fact that I felt scared, I could feel scared. I wasn't unconscious.

42:26 So that's how I knew it wasn't a seizures. The fact that I was able to actually feel like, oh, I'm I'm feeling scared. Oh wow, okay, hey, I'm still conscious. That means it's not a seizure. And I thought this is good. This is not this is good, but this is good that it's not a seizure. But I mean, it did. Originally I thought, Oh no, please let this not be a seizure because that means I can't take kratom anymore because it means seizure. And then I just realized, no, I'm just kind of shaking a little bit, but I'm not going into a seizure. I just laid down and the time factor and then I was fine. Yeah, the few times I've had the wobbles, yeah, you just basically lay down for a little bit. Usually passes within a few hours and then you just learn like, OK, this one's a little too much, maybe I need to take less of it. It just allows you to really pay close attention to what you're consuming, how you're doing it.

43:17 You told me recently you traveled to a location where kratom is actually banned and listed as a schedule one narcotic, even though we know it's not narcotic. Tell us a little bit about that. What is it like to travel to a location where you know it's banned? Well, I was all excited because we don't go on very May trips. It used to be my husband always had like really restrictive work schedules and he happened to have this chance to go on a trip and I was all excited. So I was, you know, packing up and everything. And then it occurred to me that it's this place where kratom was banned. And it's like, of all the places, I mean, we already had everything all set. It's not like you can undo all the plans and have all the places to go.

43:59 We had to pick one where kratom was banned, but I wasn't going to go without the Kratoms. I thought, how do you do this? How do you drive? And it was we were driving there because I have no idea. I didn't have it planned as far as how we would do the an airline. So what we did is I had I just purchased some little Baggies for another trip to put my daily like vitamins and stuff. I had my daily vitamins normally in a pill box and I thought, well, rather than oh, I should back up, we purchased a Jaguar and black beauty Jag is what we call her. So anyway, we had black beauty. It's a 2 seater has no backseat. Little tiny. Bless her heart, she can't you can't pack hardly anything in black beauty Jags.

44:42 So I can't pick, you know, these pill boxes and like, how do we just downsize everything? So that's why I was putting my, my little pills and my little everything with vitamins into these little tiny bags. So I had that going and I thought, well, wait a minute, I've got these little bags. Why don't I put the kratom tablets into the little tiny bags? So now I've got all these bags and my, all of my doses. So I, I counted out exactly how many tablets I would take for each dose. So I thought when I do take them, I don't want to be sitting there counting out the tablets in a restaurant and have people looking and it's like, what is that? Because if it is any other tablet, they're going to think, why are you taking, you know, 25 pills? So what are you doing? So I want to be able to down it right away. So I had them all counted out and had them in little Baggies. It's like, well, now what do you do it? So we emptied out the ibuprofen out of I shouldn't be. So they go looking.

45:32 So I put all ibuprofen in another Ziploc bag and I just left that at home. I thought I told my husband, I said if you need ibuprofen, we're just have to go into, you know, corner store or something and just go buy some ibuprofen. And I stuck all the little Baggies of kratom tablets into the ibuprofen. So now we've got this big ibuprofen and we stuck it in like the little armrest thing in the Jag and the whole trip it's like we had to always consciously think, where is the ibuprofen? Oh, that's the other thing. Made sure we never referenced kratom. It was like, oh honey, did you get my ibuprofen out? So if anyone heard us and it's like, oh, I think I forgot my ibuprofen in the Jag. Could you go get the ibuprofen? It's like, Oh yeah, I forgot that. So he's going out out there because I kept thinking, what if they find the ibuprofen in the Jag? That means now they've got to take the Jag because the Jag had ibuprofen in it.

46:24 So now we lose our car too, because it's got, it's got this, the drug in the Jag. So it's like then it's in the hotel. I even got so scared that when I would take the kratom, I thought, well, what about the little baggie? Do I leave this in the hotel room in the garbage can? What if they find the garbage can? So I'm putting the little Baggies in my makeup bag to take back home to dispose of my husband's like, OK, Deb, you got to breathe. They're not sending drugs, kratom, drug sniffing dogs up to check the garbage to see what was in the little baggie that you stuck in the garbage can. He's like, you can throw away the little Baggies. Don't worry about it. So he's like, I don't think, I don't think you're in that much danger. We'll just keep track of the ibuprofen and you're fine. I.

47:13 Just kept thinking if they catch me I'm just going to prison and that's it, I'm done. That is crazy that in places where it is banned, not just the band, the sale, but like they're like where you went and other parts of the US, not very many of them, thank God, but were they treated as schedule one where is a felony if you're caught with it and could go to prison? They're not actively looking for people with kratom. So I think you know, but still is that mindset it puts you in knowing you're going somewhere where that's how is treated. So, oh, that's what Michael kept saying. And I I knew that where it's like, it's not like they're actively hunting this down and trying to remember our rights. Where it's like, you know, someone says, can we search your car?

48:04 No, and you know, I've always been one of these cooperative people where if a police officer asked for something, it's like I just very cooperative, but you know, thinking it through methodically saying do you have a search? You know, in my mind, do you have a search warrant? Is there it's like no, you cannot search our car. So I was we always made sure the quote UN quote ibuprofen was in the the little it's like a glove box, but it was between the armrest thing between the the seats. It's like, Oh yeah. So now don't stop me. Police officers are looking at but but I mean, making sure that that we're not just making it available that you actually stick to your rights. And they to think through that as far as the legalities of that, that you don't have to just. And I was thinking about what was what was her name? And was it Alabama, the gal that crossed over from Yeah. So that was.

48:53 That was Shana Brown, who bought it in Florida, where it is legal and crossed an imaginary state line in Alabama. And Alabama is one of the states where it is banned. And so she gets caught with it at some traffic stop or something. I forgot what it was, a checkpoint stop I think it was. And they searched her car and they found that she had kratom. They threw her in jail and she was in jail for about 8 or nine months. We raised enough money through all of us advocates on social media, and we bailed her out. She's still facing this positive. You know, right now it's just nothing's really happening. But she's been out on on bond for almost a year now and is still up in the air.

49:36 But you know, she's facing 10 years to life with this. Oh no, that's crazy. A plant, a powder that saved her with her addiction. That's crazy. I was for harm reduction and it's just terrible. See, I was thinking about her that's and that's the whole thing where I was like, what can I do different so that I don't end up in that same situation? And that I didn't mean to say that as if I'm putting anything that even in the remotest sounds like I'm putting blame. I'm I'm not Shayna because no, I want to come rescue you. I mean, that's not, not anything in her direction, but it's like, how can is there anything that we can do ourselves to not get in that situation?

50:20 Not that any of it's their own fault, but to prevent something like that if we have to cross state lines as far as creative. And I keep wondering, it's like, why did they search your car? Did they even have any right to do that? Or did they just take right to do that when it wasn't their right to search your car? You know, because I can't see how how you just pull someone over and ask for their driver's license and then all of a sudden you have the right to search the car. Yeah. And as far as advice to people, it's like if there's any question you're close to a border, make sure it's in your trunk or it's somewhere where it's not seen, even if it isn't an ibuprofen container. Yeah, it's sad that, you know, there's been these cases of people caught with it in a place where it's banned. A lot of people travel around the country, truck drivers and stuff, or they don't even realize it's banned in certain places and they're they've got kratom with them. And so they'll usually hear about it from us advocates talking about it.

51:14 So I just like advocating and just getting the word out because I know it helps people. Just like when I mentioned it, you heard me talk about it and it just makes me so happy that this plant has helped you so much. Are you doing any kind of advocacy? Are you just doing like some word of mouth and letting people know about how kratom is helping you or what? What all have you been doing? I'd like to get more involved. I'd actually like to spend more time volunteering. So I, I looked up like, AKA I don't not sure how to get in touch with them. So if they happen to hear this, hey, I'm, I'm here and I, I want to help out and God willing, if there's anything in Washington, DC, I mean, it doesn't even have to go that far, but I'm, I'm willing to go tell my story, go do anything because I think more and more people when I'm reading these stories of and I don't want to pick on people specifically. So not saying names, but deaths that are attributed to kratom. And we could talk for hours just on that topic alone. But I mean, I understand when people lose loved ones and they're terribly sad, but it it really aggravates me that people are weaponizing that situation and turning against kratom. And then people who are ignorant of the whole situation, like you said last time we talked as far as the misinformation that's out there and that that means that other people are not allowed to take kratom or like I was telling my husband last night after watching the AK.

52:31 Now I just discovered the AK has these webinars. I love them and I'm like, I'm like, and the at the kratom gals and the two guys, Oh my goodness. Okay, so I'm so excited and go tune in all and you have to definitely put links to that the show. But that's tell my husband would be like, for instance, if somebody is allergic to peanuts and maybe they don't know and they eat peanuts and for whatever, you know, they they die from the allergy, But then the parent is going out there saying we now have to ban peanuts forever. And that means and by the way, I actually for my epilepsy, I take peanuts like I eat peanut butter and that will stop. I know the doctors think I'm crazy, but it actually works.

53:12 So I'm sorry, neurologist, it is true. But if I feel a seizure coming on, I can eat peanut butter and stop a seizure. Crazy as it is, it, it may not work 100% of the time, but I actually can slow down and I can stop a seizure that's coming out on peanut butter. So now because somebody died because I have a peanut allergy and didn't know what they died and their mother and father are upset, so they go on a whole campaign and they ban peanuts across the United States that nobody can eat peanuts. That means that I as an epileptic, I'm not allowed to use peanuts to stop my seizure. That scenario is about as crazy as what they're doing with kratom. Yeah, they're weaponizing their grief. You got these attorneys trying to capitalize on this.

53:52 And you know, we go through so much of this in the community where misinformation, propaganda, weaponizing the grief, doing all these things, they're just so hell bent on getting this plant to the point where they want it banned for everyone. Even though this there are millions of people in the US that use this and it helps them. And what they do? What's the other option to go dive overdose of oxy? Right, exactly. It's like they don't even care. I know I I feel like we can have a whole episode talking about that, but this has been such a great discussion with you, Deborah, because I mean, it's great revisiting from where we were almost a year ago.

54:33 I mean, like I literally sat down with you, I think it was about 10 months ago and you had just started and it was so cool hearing your early beginnings with kratom and now coming back all this time later to see like where you at now, how how this is doing for you. And I imagine you have a lot more you can share. So my last question is like knowing all the stuff you know now and you definitely know a lot more, what advice would you give someone who's just starting out in their journey? Well, what's right on my mind right now, because we're just talking about the whole banning and all that is make sure that you, well, you know what? Here's some advice. Hook up with Madeline and her group and shave the links because you need to stay informed as far as like, for instance, where kratom is allowed and not allowed. Because I think that if you're planning a trip, definitely know where you're going or where you're crossing borders and things like that.

55:27 As far as where it's legal or it's not legal, doesn't mean that you can't take a kratom with you, but it would be helpful to know how to deal with kratom so that you don't get sucked into one of these things like Shana Brown. That's just something that's like on my mind because it was just within what was that the last two weeks. And I would just hate to see anybody else get in that same situation as Shana. But don't let that stop you taking the kratom because to me, kratom definitely helps you balance your life and helps to give you life as far as me able to be, as I called it, normal person for lack of any other words, it definitely is a lifesaver and it's certainly gave me my life back. So thank you, Mad.

56:08 Thank you so much, Deb. This has been a great time catching up. So thank you for spending time with us today. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for listening. You can get more information at kratomstoriespodcast.com, including show notes from this episode.