Ep 55: Jennifer Taft: Reclaiming Life with Kratom for Rheumatoid Arthritis

0:00 Sometimes capsules don't work for people. I think it really helped that even though I was going to a smoke shop, the smoke shop was knowledgeable about strains in fact, and she, you know, had me try different types. We did Reds and I didn't notice a real change till I started doing the powder and noticing that I had to go up in dosage because I was not taking enough. That's part of the problem with why maybe the capsules didn't work too, is I'd have to take a lot of the capsules. Welcome to Kratom Stories, a weekly podcast where we share stories of how this amazing plant has changed our lives. I'm your host, Madeleine Sklar.

0:46 Each week I'll bring you a new episode featuring interviews with experts, advocates, and everyday people who've experienced the benefits of kratom first hand. Join me as we dive deeper into the world of this botanical wonder and discover the amazing stories behind this incredible plant. The Kratom Stories Podcast is presented solely for educational purposes. Neither the podcast nor its host promote or endorse the use of kratom, a substance not yet regulated or approved by the FDA. The views and opinions expressed by guests are theirs alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the host or the podcast. The content is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified healthcare provider with any questions regarding the use of kratom.

1:34 Before we dive into today's episode, I want to let you know about Kratom Real Talk. It's a new community for positive, uplifting discussions about the power of whole leaf kratom. If you'd like to be part of the conversation and learn more about this plate or contribute your knowledge, go to kratomrealtalk.com. I'm here with Jennifer Taft, a lovely lady I've met on TikTok. And I know I keep saying this lately at just about every intro of this podcast, but I am meeting so many amazing people on TikTok. I never would have thought that would be where I'd be connecting with so many people and I'm just so thrilled. It seems to me that TikTok is a great place to connect with other like minded kratom consumers as well as people learning about kratom and looking for information. Jennifer, I am so glad we met on there. Thank you coming on the podcast to Share your story. No problem, excited to share.

2:35 So let's start with you telling us a little bit about yourself and life before kratom came along. OK I AM 54 years old. I got diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis when my daughter was four and she's now 23. So that's, do that math. I struggled with the normal bumps and lumps of RA. You go through the whole finding a rheumatologist, which I still haven't found a really great fit trying all these new drugs. They, you know, try biologics, they try different things going on steroids for to reduce pain.

3:17 And about, I'd say about 10 years ago, the pain got to the point of I need to do something different. I'm adult. I acknowledge that I'm going to have this disease forever. My body is just going to get worse. So I had gone through, you know, the normal bumps of being a pain patient. The try this, try going through, you know, we'll send you to get different exercises to help try, you know, taking this supplement. Try the whole thing until I reached the point where it was, we first started me on a low dose of tramadol. That was kind of the adventure.

4:02 And then we switched to an opiate pain medication. And I've been on that for about 10 years on and off. I am lucky because unlike other people, I did not end up going to kratom. Because of that, I got cut off from my doctor. I went to kratom because I wanted some control over me and my pain. I feel like I have to acknowledge that it exists, but I also need to find something that makes it a little more so you can get through the day. So that's kind of how I stumbled into using kratom. So you've been in pain management, you said, about 10 years now?

4:45 About 10 years I don't first was in a pain management clinic This was pre the 2018 changes of guidelines. I felt like I was being over prescribed I know that's weird most people don't have that concern. At the same time I had found a new GP and I went to him with this concern. I'm like listen I I know I'm going to need opiates but I feel like this other place is giving me way more than I need. I'm turning into a zombie. And also to the concern of the more you take the higher your tolerance becomes. And he switched me to a different opiate that worked for years and it has worked but we have had difficulty with breakthrough pain and other things. And also to tolerance.

5:34 I get concerned that when I really need those opiates to work, I will have too high of a tolerance for them. So I have used kratom in a different way than other people. I use it on my moderate pain days or the days that, you know, not feeling great, but I don't really need to take that pill. I analyze it, which has been great because I can take the kratom. I take it in the morning, in the afternoon. I find it lasts about six hours, which is longer actually than my pain medication. And it's not something you notice helping. It's like all of a sudden you're oh wait, I'm not hurting as much. It's not like I know people are like, oh, you 4. I don't get a high off of it.

6:23 I get a huh, OK, so I'm not feeling pain. The other thing that I found is helpful is with rheumatoid arthritis and a lot of chronic illnesses, you struggle with fatigue like it is just can't explain it to people. It's like having the flu 24/7. And I've also found that it is helpful for that as well as it gives me a little bit of a like a cup of coffee boost. Like what coffee should do doesn't do it to me anymore, but and I've discovered ways to take it that are tolerable. So what I do is a little different. I take it on my moderate to mild pain days and my opiates are put forward.

7:05 I really need them. And that's been great because I've gone down from how many pills a day to only like probably once a week do I need them. And that's even questionable as I try kratom first. See if that works. There's another thing in your toolbox. That is so interesting. So really your opioids is more of an as needed on like really bad pain days. Really bad, yeah. Wow, that is so interesting and like and you said like about once a week. Maybe if even, but one of the interesting things I found is my last. I have flares with RA where it's like I can't walk, my joints are really bad. I get put on steroids for about a week and 1/2 and this time I tried I've been sent some white and because the vendor I use I don't know if I'm allowed to mention vendors. Oh.

8:02 Jordan at Creative New Hope. New Hope Botanicals. Oh he's great. He's one of my favorite vendors. Shout out to them, they are amazing. I, they'd sent a little sample of the white and I had tried it and I'm like, Oh my gosh, this works better than because when I go through a flare, the doctor normally gives me morphine, long, long acting. And because just that way I'm not, you know, constantly taking pain medication, but the white actually worked better than my long acting morphine. I was actually able to make it through the flare without ending up taking it. So, you know, my doctor's supportive. He's like, we'll have to do labs and, you know, check your kidney and liver, which I do anyway.

8:49 And he's been awesome about it. He doesn't, he didn't know much about it. He's been learning slowly. He's like, you'll have to keep telling me because if this works for you, you know, I have other patients that maybe this could be helpful for them as well, especially in the environment where doctors feel like they can't prescribe. Yeah, it is getting worse and worse. I mean, it was bad when I got dropped from pain management 2019 and here we are 2024 almost into 2025 now and it's just all you hear about on social media. The people that are either being dropped from pain management or the doctor scaling back their meds and they're being like half or more and people are struggling and trying to figure out what else can they take is so refreshing to hear that a doctor, your doctor is good with this because so many times doctors have never heard of it or they go Google it, see some of the misinformation and propaganda about kratom and automatically say this is bad.

9:50 You cannot be taking this and without really educating themselves. So it's nice to hear that your doctor is on board with us. Mine is. Really good about really learning new things along the way. For example, for a long, long time, we were don't ask, don't tell about cannabis because that also was something that we tried because we went from, I live in Oregon, so it's a legal thing in Oregon. But one of the bad things that happened was when cannabis became recreational and legalized, there was a lot less knowledge and bud tenders and doctors and just try that for your pain. And it doesn't work for all pain. I think sometimes in legal states, they tend to, well, try that, you know, you will have that instead of an opiate. So we tried that too.

10:40 Didn't find great success with it. But he's also been really good about, you know, communication is a big thing. I mean, I, I keep telling him, don't you ever retire? I'm holding you hostage. He talks about it from the doctor angle of how frustrating it is the new, a lot of the guidelines and the pushback because it's affecting his patients. I mean, he has a cancer patient that he was telling me about that he feels frustrated because he's like, I know this man is in more pain than I can prescribe. And then I send him out into the world and these pain clinics are a hoax.

11:21 He's like, they just, he doesn't need an injection. He has cancer. He's 75 years old. He's not going to, like, turn into a street addict. I mean, so yeah, it's been a learning journey. Yeah. How did you first learn about kratom? I have a friend through social media who does harm reduction and she started taking it because she didn't want to have to do supplicate or Suboxone or the one you drank, I can't remember the name of it, and it was really helpful to her. I had a friend who lives in Colorado who is also a pain patient who had mentioned that she'd been finding a lot of relief through it and also TikTok. I stumbled into it on TikTok and other people having success with it and I'm like, hey, might as well try it. I mean, it's not going to do any harm. And at first it wasn't really working well. But then again, I was buying it at your local smoke shop wasn't great quality.

12:29 The big difference between smoke shop and good quality kratom, huge difference. But it was kind of starting out. I had a hint that this, hey, this is helping a little. So that's when I switched to a real vendor and that has been much improved as far as figuring out what my body needs. I mean, what works and what dosage too. It's that's the hard part of figuring that out. It's trial and error in the beginning because it's figuring out which kind of kratom, you know, with the different colors, the red, green and white, Some people respond different to the different ones, whereas some people can consume them all and it it doesn't, you know, have have any, any issues with it not working and then figuring out that dose.

13:18 I always tell people in the beginning like trial and error, take your time. You might it might be magic the first time you take it. Or like in my case, it took, it took a little bit of time because the Reds don't work on me and I don't have my pain at all, which is so surprising because everybody was telling me in the beginning, like, that's the one you want because you say you suffer from chronic pain. I'm like, yeah. And then when they said red, I'm like, I'm all these people told me red. So I bought a bunch of red and I would, I just was like, why is this not working? And then I tried the white, which was way too much for like maybe too jittery, like too much caffeine. So I was like, no, then I tried the green one. I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is amazing. Where have you been all my life? This is like the one. And when it's working too, it's like very subtle. Not it's not.

14:03 It's like all of a sudden I have a little more energy and when I'm getting up and down, my knees are not hurting as much. It doesn't like it's not a Pansea that is going to take care of every pain you have, but it is definitely it does compete with taking a harder medication as far as work. And I the other thing too is I found it lasts longer in my body. I'm a rapid processor with opiates too. So if this lasts about six hours reliably, I can. I did. The same thing, yeah, and. About It takes about 20 minutes to like, work. And then I feel so much different, so much better. I'm able to, you know, clean my house. I know it's the glamour.

14:52 It's so funny because people assume paying patients, you know, we, we want to take something that makes us sit and relax and I'm like, no, I want something where I can get my life. I where I'm, you know, not hitting this wall at 4:30 everyday where I'm just useless. I want to have some of my quality of life back. Normal stuff. I want to go to the grocery store. I know it's like people take that for granted. And it used to be like such an undertaking to like, OK, I go to the grocery store. What am I? Am I buying something that's heavy? I've been bringing my son with me. Like like.

15:33 You have to think of every like family, like for example, holidays, Christmas, like when I didn't have access to anything was awful because I felt like crap. And you're supposed to be going to buy gifts for everybody. And I'm just in a mood because I ain't hurt. Pain turns you into a different person it. Really. It really does and I don't think most people acknowledge how much it makes things very hard and makes your quality of life. I mean, that's why one of the risks for not treating pain is suicide, because many people who have chronic long term pain just, you know, there's no light at the end of the tunnel. They're not feeling like there's anything that's going to give them their life back.

16:26 And you can't really tell other people because they don't get it. I think I've just gotten within the past couple years, my family's finally at the point where they get it, but they still struggle with it like that. I can't plan stuff after after 430, like just don't include me because I won't be able to do it. And that's gotten over time much, much more of a serious matter in life. But yeah, I think people underrate the fact how much it really makes you have to strategize your life. Yeah exactly and since I started kratom 5 1/2 years ago, I'm not in that world anymore. It is so refreshing to be back to the self I was before living with chronic pain where I can be more productive. I don't have to like, overthink.

17:16 What am I buying at the grocery store? Can I do this by myself? And I'm like you, I'm a rapid processor with opioids. I was to the point where I was popping my Percocets like every three hours. I was taking Oxycontin a couple times a day. I know it's a long acting, but they weren't very long acting on me. Me too, I have the same problem. Yeah. Yeah. And some of us are are built that way and we can't help it. But then when you get to the point where you feel like the meds just aren't helping, they're not as effective building up the tolerance like you were talking about earlier, it gets so frustrating. It's like, where do you go from here? And how amazing to discover a plant this kratom where just like with you, I can go six hours and be basically pain free.

18:02 I feel so much better. I get that little boost of energy like you're talking about, kind of like a cup of coffee and I just can do things again is so nice. And a big part of it, too, is having control over yourself. Yeah. That's one of the things I like about kratom is I, you know, I am in control. Nobody else is. Nobody is in control of what I take. There is no demonizing mostly for what I take. And there's no not that judgement because opiates, man, part of the hard thing is when you're a pain patient is like the pharmacy dealing with pharmacists that have judgments, dealing with, you know, other doctors who have judgments. I've been very fortunate that I have not experienced that. But other thing too, like you said, the tolerant thing is huge because I ran into that.

19:02 I've had my knees redone and when I had my second knee redone, I ended up having to stay in the hospital for four days because we could not control my pain. That's when we found out the rapid processor part is that just I was on heavy duty stuff and that kind of scared me a little bit because I'm like my doctor and I have talked about like he's like, we need to have the ability that in your back pocket. If I need to prescribe more, I can. But when you're at this level, there's not much more room to go. So that was a big factor in me changing as well as the control. But also to the I know I'm going to need something in my life forever, and I don't want to build up such a tolerance that when I need that medication that in my toolbox, it's not going to work for me anymore. Yeah, and that's something we go through and pain management. I remember there was a time where the meds weren't working very well.

20:03 And I remember just like, being in tears with the doctor. Like, what else can we be doing? Because this is just not enough. I keep, you know, having these tolerance issues. So that was at one point switched to the fentanyl patch before fentanyl was a big, big deal like in the news and. What I remember this is probably about 12 years ago, they were like 3 different levels of the, I don't know if it's different now fentanyl patch. You had that lower 120. Five 50s and then hundreds? Yeah. So we started with the lowest one of being a rapid processor like you. I remember the doctor saying this is normally 3 days and he goes, you'll probably see how long you can go, but you'll probably be two days.

20:45 Sure enough, barely two days. I mean like a day and a half. And I did it and the pain relief was pretty good, but I had a lot of bad side effects, really bad side effects with that. But here's what happened though, Jennifer, not too long in, it just didn't work anymore. And the doctor's like, well, let's do the next level up. So I'm like, OK, go to that second patch level and OK, this is working. OK, OK. And still taking opioids for breakthrough as well. And. It didn't last long. And then the doctor's like, well, I can prescribe you that high. I'm like, wait a minute though, that next level dose is the highest you can go. It's like, what if I get to the point that doesn't work just like what you're saying?

21:29 Where else do you go? And this is a scary prospect, especially when we're not really that old. And it's like, and I'm like you like, I'll have to be taking something for the rest of my life for my chronic pain. And it's scary that like, there's so many limitations with these meds. I had the same experience with patches. And that's when I switched to my GP when we went to the 50. And he was like, well, we could do the 100. And I was still taking, you know, breakthrough pain medication. But the other thing, too, is I didn't realize I was a zombie. I didn't think I was. But like, the feedback from my family was my daughters were younger, you know, they'd be like, are you OK? Can you?

22:19 And there was a concern of, you know, I had to stop doing certain aspects at work. I used to be a preschool teacher and I used to drive the bus. So when that happened, I had to stop driving the bus. I was, you know, I told my director, I'm on opiates. I can't be driving anymore. And I had such problems with it that I ended up losing my job while trying to figure out the whole what dosage works because I was not functioning. I didn't realize I wasn't functioning because you don't know that when it's you. But that was like a big wake up call of I know I, I, I need to do something else. And also to the fear of, you know, if that doesn't work, where do you go?

23:08 I mean, but this was before they changed a lot of guidelines because now like nobody would give you that. Oh, right. Yeah, times have changed with guidelines, that's for sure. Wow. So let's go back to when you first started kratom. So you said you initially were buying it at a smoke shop. How long was it between like you're trying it from the smoke shop until you started realizing like oh I should get this online, get better quality. It was about a month because I had run into, I had stumbled into Jordan's video about the differences between that and smoke shop and that heavy metals etcetera. But also to the smoke shop.

23:50 I went to the lady knew actually a lot about kratom because she is from Thailand I believe and she was has used it herself. She pointed me in the direction to there's a certain brand that they sold that was Oregon produced that was a little better than the rest. But she'd also said you should find a vendor online. Don't want to lose a customer, but you should try this because and there's a shop in Portland that sells kratom, but it's very, I, I don't know if you've ever been to Portland. It's very niche in a very, very popular part of town. And the price of it is very pricey compared to Jordan and his kratom business.

24:41 So then I started ordering it online and was like, wow, this is a big difference. And same, I went through trying different, you know, Reds, greens, whites now, and I found different ones have different effects. They all kind of work, but there's some that just work a little bit better than others. And then I discovered how to drink it and not want to throw up. How's that? Tell me how what you figured out with that 'cause I know a lot of people have a hard time drinking it. Fair Day or Fair Life makes a chocolate milk that has lots of protein in it. I do it in that and it tastes like a milkshake.

25:23 Oh wow. I mean, it's so much better. You can barely taste the taste with chocolate milk because before I was doing orange juice and that works. That first of all, when they started, it was water and I couldn't. Yeah. Oh gosh. Like you gotta have juice or something else in there for some flavor. I can't imagine. Dry man, I can't. Oh yeah, talk and wash. I can't do that either. There's no way. Respect. I get that powdery feeling and it gives my gag reflex. Yeah, exactly. Not good, but I have found the Fair Life chocolate milk works really well 'cause I am getting some protein and it tastes seriously even makes the little lumps taste like chocolate, like a milkshake.

26:08 So that's worked really well. I love that. See, OK, so when I first started, you know, I tried the capsules, but I just they weren't really working and people said, oh, powder is better, just, you know, drink it. And so I did the everybody kept saying orange juice. You want to add the orange juice because with the citrus it helps the alkaloids work better. So, you know, I do, I make my little swamp water kratom tea and I did the orange juice and I got way better relief when I did it that way, But it tasted so bad. So I tried chocolate milk. I remember somebody in the Facebook group said, oh, try chocolate milk and it didn't taste nearly as bad. But it didn't work as well for me with my pain as it did when I did it with orange juice.

26:49 And it's so interesting. And that's why I always tell people in the beginning, keep a journal and kind of keep track of your doses and what you're taking and how it makes you feel, because then it's really easy to look at and go, OK, here are the patterns I see. But I just remember the chocolate like I was like oh chocolate milk. This didn't taste too bad but it didn't last as long for me. My pain came back way faster. It just wasn't the same and I. I'm curious now, I'm going to have to try doing the difference and see you if I know any difference. But I also wonder, is that similar, the alkaloid factor, is that similar to like with cannabis, there's terpenes and certain terpenes can make your experience different.

27:31 Like for example, mango with a sativa tends to give you more energy and mango has the terpenes that make it interact. That's curious. I, I would love to like actually meet a physician that does plant medicine just to have that experience of talking to somebody of how it works. How does it literally work because I think it needs more study because it works for people for extremely different reasons. Like if this is a great thing to be using wall your harm reduction while you're trying to get off other drugs. It should be more known for that community, especially because right now your choices are that you're tied to dosing every day or the Sublocade or Suboxone, which is great that we have access, but there's other people out there that don't want that control.

28:33 So like it's great seeing some people that have used it for addiction reasons too. I actually recommended to my daughter because she was struggling with alcohol. She's six months sober, but I mentioned Kratom to her. I'm like, maybe it could be helpful for you because they put her on a medication to, you know, make it so that you don't want to drink. So she actually has been trying it too and finding it helpful for that urge. That's what a lot of people say. A lot of people say that they don't want to drink it make like I know some people that take kratom specifically for chronic pain and like you know what? I don't ever have any feelings about drinking.

29:14 I'm not interested in drinking. They just don't drink anymore. And then some people specifically use it or stopping their alcohol intake. And it's just amazing that this plant is like a pharmacy, you know, it just, it helps in so many ways for people. I love that. I just worry that it is big pharma now going to demonize it because, you know, we don't want people to have access to something that they can fix themselves with, right? Or, you know, they're just some states making it illegal. Like, what in the heck? Somebody's being arrested for what? For kratom? Yeah, give me a break. It's crazy, but you know, all that was from misinformation and propaganda cause in 2016 the FDA was just hell bent on getting kratom scheduled one, making it illegal in the whole, you know, on a federal level.

30:08 It didn't work because they can't prove that it's dangerous. But apparently a handful of states decided like, oh, they're getting ready to schedule this schedule 1 and make it illegal. Let's just go ahead and make it illegal in our state. And it's so crazy that happened and all these years have passed and they haven't undone that. Like there's still illegal. Propaganda. Yeah, I mean that honestly. It's same with the with like opiates, the propaganda is just, you know, working against you because everybody wants to believe that if you need this, you're an addict because you need this medication and it's not the way it works and we're not the ones who are overdosing. You've done study after study and found that the reason that you are having overdoses is because of St. Drugs.

31:03 Also too, the reason you're having overdoses is you're cutting people off from any access to medication and then they're going to the street, which is a huge problem here. And I've actually talked to I do harm reduction in our homeless community and hand out Narcan when they can and do other things like when it's hot, hand out water popsicles, that kind of stuff, mutual aid. And I have talked to a lot of fentanyl users and a lot of them were normal people. And then they just wanted access to something that made them not hurt. And slowly they ended up losing everything because they are now addicted to this medication, not medication, but St. drug that's being mixed with all sorts of other bad things. And a lot of the people on the street, too, are elderly that have been, you know, Social Security. They can't afford somewhere to live. Plus they've, you know, started being an path of addiction. So yeah.

32:16 But it would be nice to have more people know about kratom and it to be more of something that is easily known about because it's kind of one of those things that you stumble into. Right. And it and I like the fact that you are, you and other people are making an awareness about that. Hey, there's this plant out there that you have access to that could really make a difference in your life. And like you said to TikTok has been a huge part of that for how much it gets demonized. There are so many good things on this app that have really changed people's lives.

33:00 It's amazing, like I still am just in shock with how many people I've talked to on TikTok and able to help them learn more about kratom so that they can get their life back through, you know, how what they've been dealing with, with their chronic pain and being in pain management. And it's just so sad that the medical community is just failing all of us as pain patients and and they just don't seem to care. I mean, I, I was going to go try to find a drug dealer. We shouldn't have to. We should not lose access to our meds for our chronic pain, our legitimate chronic pain, and have no other choice than to go to the streets. And thank God I found kratom when I did because I mean, I was seriously like, OK, where am I going to find a drug dealer? Like I was at that place.

33:43 Like well, I got. I got to figure out something. Well, pain drives you there. Yeah. I mean, you're not a rational thinking person anymore. You're just, it's like almost like an animal that you're going by instinct of and it's the street drugs are accessible any corner under $5. Take. Your chances, yeah, it's bad. And I think the medical community also too, I think there's a lot of PTSD out there as far as I think COVID really did a lot of harm mentally to physicians, nurses, patients. I think the trauma that they experienced is part of the reason why we are in this situation is that they were so demonized during COVID that I think they lost a little piece of that empathy anymore.

34:38 And the focus has been so much on them being bad. So if you find a good doctor, make sure you support them, right? Yeah. But I, I think that that's definitely part of it. And I think one of the things too was pain and kratom and TikTok is loneliness. Because when you're chronic pain, you hideaway, you stop doing things, you stop going places or just being disabled, you don't Co workers to talk to anymore. You're talking to the dog every day. TikTok has given you a community of people that you have access to have social interaction with.

35:21 And I think that that's very important. As much as it gets demonized, there's a certain community of people that if TikTok goes away, I worry for them because this is the only interaction that they're getting. It's a lifeline. It's a lifeline. Especially if you are disabled and at home alone, you know, living in rural Minnesota somewhere, you know, it's not like you have a whole lot of people to choose to and people don't get you because. Right. One of the things with chronic pain too, is you find out who your friends really are. Oh, absolutely. Who your die hard going to be there people are and you find out very quickly because that people stop inviting you to things you're all of a sudden not on the guest list.

36:12 I've been really lucky. I actually found for social media. I was in an RA support group and there was this woman named Kimberly that we just like hit it off like everything. We just, we would chat online. We just made friends and we didn't realize that we lived two blocks from each other. Really. Not even recently, which makes me sad. But yeah, we we realized we lived around the corner from each other. Like we have to meet. And she's been my best friend for 12 years. And the nice thing is, is she also has the same issues as me, so I don't feel like I'm, you know, tiny violining.

36:54 I can call her and say be truthful of how bad the day is and she can talk me down. That's what's so amazing with social media is being able to find like minded people and even better when it turns out they live right by you. So that's very cool. I want to go back to when you first started kratom. Was it something that worked for you right away or how much trial and error did it take? You said you started with capsules, then you switched. The powder capsules, they weren't doing much, but through video on YouTube I access that sometimes capsules don't work for people. I think it really helped that even though I was going to a smoke shop, the smoke shop was knowledgeable about strains, in fact, and she, you know, had me try different types. We did Reds and I didn't notice a real change till I started doing the powder and noticing that I had to go up in dosage because I was not taking enough.

37:55 That's part of the problem with why maybe the capsules didn't work too. I'd have to take a lot of the capsules. They'd be over also too more expensive if I took capsules because I do about 5 teaspoons. No. What is it? About 5 grams. About 5 grams and mix that up and that seems to be the perfect amount. That seems to be what gets me to six hours. And then, you know, she told me to mix it with orange juice. And so at least there was somebody in real time too, that was helpful. That's good. That's because sometimes. Smoke. Shops, yeah, I've heard plenty of.

38:37 People just try it and are like, oh it did work. There's a lot of that. There's a lot of that where and I'll see people in my comments on TikTok like, oh, I tried that once. It didn't work well. I need to try it more than once and it's helpful to get good quality product and get somebody that can help guide you. I'm glad you had help with the smoke shop because I don't hear that very often. Most times people say the smoke shop people are not very helpful and not very knowledgeable, but it's important to do your research anyway and just have an understanding of what you're consuming and learn about it. When you first started kratom, were you still taking your opioids at that point or were you not? I was and then I realized that that was a bad idea because it affects your immune receptors. And that's the point where I started. Well, how, how long can I use the kratom before I actually need the other?

39:29 Which I, I may be a weird pain patient because my goal is never to be have to take this. I know some people take theirs, you know, on a schedule every single day. My goal is to go down in the amount that I need to take and to try other things first. Then that's kind of like the toolbox, the last resort. So I do not in the days that I need my opiates, I do not take the kratom. So. That is so interesting. But it's what it was, what works for you, you know, it's figuring out what works best for you, but of course not taking them both together because they do affect the same receptors.

40:10 I was always told from the beginning that you don't take them together because they'll cancel each other out because they're trying to both get on the same receptors. When I first started, I did kratom during the day and then I go back to my pain meds at night while I was in that trial and error, figuring out the right thing and right dose and all that. And I always made sure I waited a good four to six hours in between the meds and it was fine. But here's what I noticed once I found the right dose and found that the greens were for me and it was really starting to work. I remember some people said to me, when you're 100% off your opioids and you're just consuming kratom, it'll work even better. And I'm like, really, OK, whatever.

40:52 And then once I found the right dose, found the right everything, I completely stopped the opioids where I was doing kratom day and night. And I would say within several weeks, maybe a month, it did feel like it was where I mean, I because I was taking it like every four hours and then slowly I could go longer and longer and then to eventually get to every six hours for my dose. But you know, it's just interesting that I felt like over time it didn't work a little bit better. Have you noticed it? You say you're only taking your your pain meds like maybe once a week, so you're not even taking them that often. Yeah, I haven't noticed that they don't work. I've noticed that. Just that I get more longer acting relief with the kratom for me, you know, one of my meds just barely cuts it and that's a dosage I'm supposed to take and that lasts sometimes 3 hours. So yeah, I found that kratom just gives me a little more time that and I just really, I want to hit the point where I don't have to rely on opiates.

42:00 That's the goal. I would like, you know, I like that I have them available if I need them. But I also too is always been a goal to you know which may be weird is the goal is not to need them. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. I think that's a great goal. Yeah, I mean, my doctor is way more comfortable with that, too, because we've discussed that and he's like you, so you always have that in your head. I'm like, yeah, I mean, we changed my dosage from summer to winter because my body has a harder time in winter. But I'm like, there's always the goal of, you know, if I don't have to take it, I won't. So I the other thing too is I've never had to deal with opiate withdrawal the way that I use them because it's not consistent enough that your body's like, I mean, I, yes, I need them, feel like you need them and get a little bit withdrawal, but not like other people go through like hell when they're withdrawing off their pain meds.

43:01 Yeah. Because they're reliant on it every single day, which is fine, that's normal. Some people do need it, you know, Everybody's different and not everything works for every person, so. Yeah, My biggest concern when I was starting kratom was am I going to go through withdrawals because I've been taking opioids every day for nine years, high doses of it. But it was so nice that when I was switching to kratom that I didn't have any major withdrawals. I think the most that happened was some hot flashes when I stopped the Oxycontin. Like I could see my journal when I stopped the Oxycontin. Literally the next day was the first time I started getting some hot flashes.

43:42 So I felt like, OK, had it been from stopping that, that I've been taking for a long time. But I remember people telling me when I was researching it in the beginning that you most people don't have any withdrawals when they switch from narcotics freedom. And that is so nice to know that like, because that's, I think it's like one of the big worries we have is like, how am I going to be dealing with that? Yeah, I think that the kratom, I think that's why it works for addiction, is that it just it's subdues that part of your brain that is telling you, you need this. I would almost be curious too if some patients people find it helpful for ADHD. A lot of people get help with that, yeah. I was going to say I, I really think that that's another aspect that's not explored is that it can really help if you are a person that has difficulty focusing and because it does help that as well, that's where that little boost of energy too comes from.

44:45 So. Yeah, a lot of people have told me that it's helped them with their ADD and that it's it's for it's helped with anxiety, depression. So many people I talked to will say I started kratom for this. But then it's like, oh wow, I realized I don't have to take these other meds. I take my anxiety medicine or my depression medicine for depression. It's like it really is truly a pharmacy in a plant. It's just amazing how it helps for so many different things that When did you start kratom? How long has it been now since you? I have been reliably using it for about 6 months now. I like tried it like a year and a half ago but didn't finish, you know, hardcore.

45:26 But about six months ago, I like OK, I'm just, I'm going to do this and started ordering it, started figuring out a dosage better and reliably using it for about 6 months has changed things drastically as far as my physical ability, as far as handling my pain. And I think part of it too mentally is it's really helped me feel like I'm in control. That's a big thing for me. Yeah, that's one of the best things about it, I think, is that I remember when you you and I were DM ING on TikTok the other day and that was one of the things you said. You said that you love that you have a resource that you can control.

46:09 And I think that's one of the great things about this plan. It definitely gives you some control. Yeah, which you don't have normally. Hello Geese. Sorry, I hear of. Yeah, I can like picture it. That's so cool. I love it. But yeah, that was a big part of one of the things that I didn't like about opiates is that I didn't have any control over it. Everybody else is in control, and having that control is just freeing. And I'm having that in my toolbox of, OK, if the world goes to hell in a handbasket and they just ban opiates forever, there is something that I have that I can use.

46:54 Yeah, which is great. And I live in a friendly state that would probably never ban it, so yeah. Well, there there's always these threats of bans around the country. It seems like a constant thing, whether it's a state level or maybe at a city level, and it's always because of misinformation and propaganda every single time. It's always the South too. I'm sorry but. It. Is it is always the same states that don't legalize marijuana right? The same? And The funny thing I find irony is they're also the same states that struggled at first with fentanyl becoming a thing. Right. There's some weird correlation going on with that or the states that had the actual pill mills.

47:40 Yes. You know, like, is it Florida, one of the. States Florida, Florida was like that. Well, Florida is kratom is legal there. I think there may be a couple of counties or different couple of places in Florida. I think where they where it's been banned like at a city level. I don't remember them off the top of my head, but that's where all the pill mills were. What's Florida? Something interesting my friend that does harm reduction and use kratom. She's an ex heroin addict and she travels a lot now doing speeches and she worked for the state of Oregon helping our drug policy when we did measure 110 which legalized small forms of having access. If you have, you know, under this amount, they're not going to arrest you, which has changed since. But one of the interesting things she ran into is she had to get on Suboxone or one of those type of things because she was going abroad.

48:42 And in England it's illegal for kratom because she was using kratom for her addiction and then had to switch because of the legality of going to England. And then the worst thing happened to her. She had her bags stolen and had her doses in it. Oh no, that's good. No, it was bad. Like it was bad. She had to call the American Embassy. She, like, was doing all these things to try to figure out, you know, and she's like, I'm some strange American who's in their ER clinic asking if they can give me a dose of this medication, and they're looking at me like I'm crazy. She's like, I had to file a police report for it. She's like, yeah, all because I couldn't take kratom because it's illegal.

49:34 Yeah, there's some countries where it's banned, but usually in those countries it's again, this information and propaganda almost always. And it's just sad that this plan is demonized so much. I'm glad it's helped you a lot. And it's just so great hearing your story, being that you've been, you know, consuming this regularly for six months now. What advice would you give someone who was just getting started in their journey? What would you be telling them? Oh, I would say, you know, talk to Someone Like You or a reliable vendor. Jordan has been amazing. Make sure that you're you're don't just give up.

50:16 Try trial and error. You have to the trial and error to is going to be your dosage. If it's not working for you, go up. If it's not working because you're taking the capsules, there's a big difference between the powder and capsules. Really look up. There is things out there to help you, but like ask somebody that's using it questions. You know how the you know, that way you're not alone trying to figure out how to make this useful. I mean, I was lucky because the smoke shop person was very knowledgeable, but that's not the usual. But reach out and ask somebody who's you know, you can find people on TikTok, etcetera that are using Misty. Misty Brown.

51:05 Yeah, I mean, there's all sorts of people that you can, you know, ask and message hey, and if you see my video, message me and I'll help you figure it out. But it's a lot of trial and error. And don't give up because it's worth it. It's well said. It is worth it. It's worth it when you find that magic. Yeah. For sure, Jennifer, this has been so much fun. Thank you for coming on and sharing your story with us. It's so nice getting to know you better and learning more about how this plant has helped you. I really appreciate. It no problem and it was great talking to you. Thank you for listening. You can get more information at Kratom Stories Podcast SCOM, including show notes from this episode.