Ep 67: From Pain to Power: How Kratom Transformed John Hanna’s Life

0:00 It just it gives you this, I don't know, I feel like I get this sense of freedom from it when I'm in that flow state, my endorphins are going. It pushes me through the next round, the next round, the next round. It's beneficial and it doesn't it doesn't have a hindrance on me. Let it hinder me, OK. And that's why the extract for me doesn't hinder me. Like the holy, like you said, everybody's different. For me, man, It's it's, it's, it's been a life changer, definitely. So I'm here with John. Somebody discovered on YouTube. I found a YouTube video of John talking about kratom. So of course I had to reach out.

0:46 I remember I sent a comment on your on your YouTube. I say TikTok a lot because I connect with a lot of people on TikTok as well. But your YouTube video grabbed my attention and said we started connecting through the comments and then move over to e-mail. And John, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast to Share your story. So thank you so much for being here. You're welcome. Thank you. My first love. Though awesome, you know, it's been a lot of people's first podcast because you know, our community is just everyday people, you know, that come on and talk about their experience with kratom. It's not, you know, like a business podcast. It's not anything fancy like that. It's just conversations with people talking about how this plant has changed, change their lives.

1:30 So why don't we first start with you telling us a little bit about yourself and life before kratom came into the pitcher? Oh, I mean, I was, I was always ambitious to learn how to grapple. That was my main thing is and I used to work in kitchens all the time. So I did kitchen work and I grappled and grappling is very hard on the body. And I discovered kratom later, but otherwise growing up in the house, you know, it was that was a bit of a rocky situation, but it seems to be the story of many Americans these days. Other than that, I hurt my back really, really bad in 2005. This is the poor friend I'm just giving, I'm giving you the 2005 on.

2:18 And I heard it really bad in training, so bad that I couldn't walk for like, so I was spent written late, practically looked like I had a broken back. So I'm playing video games and of course that's all I can do to entertain myself. And then I was eating well, I was eating muscle relaxers that I got from the doctor. They wouldn't give me any opioids, which I really needed them because I would move 1/4 of an inch and my back was just shot. Now if anybody doesn't know what grappling is, it's like it's part of MMA, it's wrestling, it's a lot of hearts, it's a lot of hard work on the body and plus the stress of light. Before that my father died and having to watch out for the family. It was a lot going on.

2:58 But I'm bedridden, can't work and I was eating probably about I got off the street because nobody, the doctor wouldn't give it to me. So I can call up a couple people and I can have a bottle like this. So that's what I got on 1st and then I had was eating probably about 5 pills a day. That's probably nothing compared to what some people do. And but I got slightly hooked on that feeling after a while and it was it was a little rough. I'm like I had to stop. So I stopped that on my own, which it wasn't that bad, but it was it was a little annoying. And then my friends found crowd of a head shop. I forget the name of it. It was, I don't know, here, try this. I was like, it was at a Kaba bar. So I'm like, OK, I took it.

3:44 And then when I got home later, the music started sounding really good. So I was like, man, this is pretty good. I was like, this feels just like, you know, as close to not exactly a light as a bike in or something. But it but it did kill the pain in my back a little bit and made me feel a little bit alive. And I was like, OK, and that was when it started with kratom and I finally went to the head shop and used to buy it. And then that thing end up perpetuating into selling it at a cover bar and then making a lot of money. So, but for me it was it helped me give me, energized me and it gave me like it was better than an energy drink, better than a coffee to go training grappling and jiu jitsu. So ever since then, that was it. And I mean, my life has been it is what it is. Maybe that's another time getting all that early light stuff.

4:31 But but before that, I think I may have had like a slightly addictive personality, but the crowd helped soothe all that over and I just didn't know how to, I don't know how to take it. I think there's just a there's a science to it. You eventually just find your niche when it comes to taking it. And that's what I found. I found my niche and how to take it and, and eventually I didn't, it took me a long time to figure out, well, you know, too much will make you sick. This and that you have to learn by trial and error, But it has really helped me get through the physical activities that I get through. It's the main thing. It's the physical activities and the amazing sleep that you get on it.

5:13 And that was that. That was pretty much. And then I've been ordering it, you know, for many years, 20 years now, since 2006, so. Wow, so you've been consuming this for quite a while? 2006? Wow. So they were selling it in smoke shops back then? Oh yeah, yeah, they sell it at smoke shops you get with however many grams and, and yeah, you had enough to probably depend on how you took it. You had it. I trained a lot. So naturally I started taking it a little bit, a little bit too much, I think. But it's OK. It depends on your, everybody's different. But it really helped. Like through hard work. I worked in kitchens too. So that's that that work is that's a chaotic scene. And then, and then after, after the kitchen work, I'm going to train graphite and then teach it and having to keep up and training.

6:04 This is when I was like 3132. I'm 50 now and I'll be proud. I'm definitely, I've always called it kratom. Everybody calls it kratom. I've always called it Kratom. But it it really it's, it's just got me through, you know, rough days, hard days. And I mean, I did have to get off of it sometimes. There was a time I had to that was like, it was just like a few days. That's only if I took the extract, but if when I took the whole leaf for like a few years, that was a that was a different beast all together. I don't know, I don't, I don't know if you want to get into all that. I don't want to talk about them or something, but I just, I do think that you need to, you need to regulate yourself a little bit on it. You know, you're not just take it like crazy. And this is my experience.

6:49 Of course, it never made me sick and like, you know, so sick that I had to go to a rehab or, you know, Oh no, and doom and gloom and all that. I just manned up and just got through it. But other than that, yeah, I'm not going to. I'm not going to stop taking it, but I'm going to. I'm going to take it to what I needed for sleep and training. And, you know, maybe sometimes in the middle of the day, just whatever, maybe I'm reading a book or studying or doing whatever I do. That's it. Yeah. So, so you've used extracts and powder like you've done both or like what? What is your preferred method of kratom? Kratom. Do you know you're going to get me saying kratom? Yeah, yeah, I've done both. First was extract, then was, then was the whole leaf because I couldn't find extract.

7:37 And so I don't know if you want to hear all that, but the, with the, with the, with the with the whole leaf, I was taking the white vein. That was my favorite one because it gave you the energy and you can sleep on it too. But the red vein is the one that really makes you sleepy. But the, but the white vein was just as good. So yeah, I started with that with the extract, which I think is better. I think it's better to get an extract because you take it every like 6-7 hours and it doesn't it, it didn't stick to you so much. The the whole leaf was a different beast, like I said before. And I think that's people like to make teas out of it. I used to just take a spoon about this big clump water. I don't get it.

8:18 All the Raspberry and the blueberry. I'm just, I'm a black coffee guy and if I drink whiskey, I drink whiskey. I take it that I might take it right, right. So I'm trying to, I like the extract better and I take a 10X now for, for me, just this is, it's a 10X. It's a very light, light bit and that's all I want anymore. I've been through the heavy stuff and I would rather take it like as far as like just just to give, just to get me through training and to get me to sleep. And that's the only reason why I take it. The extract to me is the best no matter what. That's my yeah. That's interesting and it's what works for you, you know, and, and, and you know, for whatever reason, you know, everybody has their own reasons for using kratom. There's so many different, you know, for me, it's just chronic pain.

9:03 That's what I use it for and it helps tremendously. The leaf powder, you know, the couple of times I've tried a little bit of extract, I guess because my body likes the whole leaf, you know, the whole spectrum, the full spectrum whole leaf powder and with all the different alkaloids that seems to work well on me versus the extracts were is usually just like the two main alkaloids. And then now there are these 70 H products where it's just 70 H, like a high dose 70 H. So you know, there's different types of kratom and it's figuring out what kind of works for you and and you know what you get out of it. Yeah, of course, of course, naturally and naturally, yeah. I mean, the, like I said, the holy powder, the white vein was good. But yeah, for me it was like I felt like I had to take more and more and more of it.

9:47 And it's like, and I'm like, well, if I want to, you know, if I want to chase that, you know, that that energy level that I need for training or, or weightlifting and whatever it is I do. I was like, I felt like I just needed to eat too much. And I just maybe, maybe some people got that down to a science. I couldn't find the science. I just kept gulping the spoons. And I said, well, it's better to just take like 1/4 teaspoon. And I still think that I am the catalyst behind the quarter teaspoon because I think the first cava bar that ever happened was in was Palm Beach. And I said, hey guys, this is how you do it. I just tried and I eventually figured it out. I worked in a kitchen. I said, you know what? This quarter teaspoon ought to be the sweet spot with this extract. And I did it. And I said, hey, this is it man.

10:29 I can't find that quarter teaspoon to this day, but that should be hanging on. Can I curse as hanging on a fucking plaque bark. It's right there, my picture because I found that. Oh God. But better than the big, you know, European style teaspoons here where I'm just golfing off this green sludge, you know, So I I kind of like the, like I said, the extract for me, it works for me. So but yeah, I don't think I'm the catalyst that quarter teaspoon. I could be wrong. It was 2006, 2007. Well, that was a long time ago. So yeah, it could have been you could have been you that started that whole trend. That's pretty darn cool. So So what has had the benefits been like since you started kratom way back in 2006?

11:14 Like what are all the different? Because you know, you're using with your grappling. You said that helps with that, but you also mentioned you have some pain issues. So how does it just help you with your just everyday life you. Know it's, it's so it's energy wise, like it's a different type of energy. All right, it's it's, I want to say it gets me more interested in doing things. But when you're like when you, when you take a little bit of it, it's like, man, I'm going to go work in the yard. I want to go do some laundry. I want it give you a little bit of motivation to just want to do things you normally don't feel like doing, but you should be motivating yourself to do the pain and sleep.

11:57 Mostly for me it's training and sleep now, but the benefits of it was it's just the immense amount of energy you get from that get from it to, to rest with I, I mean, as far as my way of life, I just felt like, you know, I have a friend that says moderation for cowards. But, but, but there's like I feel like with coffee, alcohol or anything that you take, which alcohol is freaking legal still. It's like, you know, when people are dying left and right from that. I think everything in moderation with this, it was moderation was key to, but it got the, the, the best part about it was it got me not thinking about those damn painkillers too.

12:37 Because the cocktail for any athlete, I think most athletes, maybe not all of them take, you know, steroids and painkillers, you know, or anabolic antigens and pain and painkillers. But that's usually the cocktail for people that they want to push through the pain. They want to, you know, so it's like you have, you know, and it's, you don't need to be taking opioids, like hard opioids and, and the other. And of course, have a doctor always monitor you when you take anabolic antigens. For the record, guys, that's a disclaimer. I have a doctor for me right now. I'm doing that. But yeah, it's just, it's, it's it just it gives you this.

13:18 I don't know, I feel like I get this sense of freedom from it when I'm in that flow state, my endorphins are going, it pushes me through the next round, the next round, the next round. It's beneficial and it doesn't and it doesn't have a hindrance on me. Let it hinder me, OK, And that's why the extract for me doesn't hinder me. Like the holy, like you said, everybody's different for me, man, It's it's it's it's been a life changer. Definitely, like I said, everything in moderation. I don't know if that answers your question. I, I'm trying to find, you know, fancy and you know, fancy words here to say what it makes me feel like, but it makes me feel damn great. Hey, that's that's what matters in this rate that you get that experience with with kratom.

14:04 So what do you think is the key to responsible use? You know, we hear all the time about people that consume extracts and they just overuse it to the point that it becomes a real problem for them. So what are your thoughts on that? Because it sounds like you're just a very responsible extract consumer. Yeah. I mean, if, if I can freely speak about my experience of getting off the whole leaf as opposed to the extract, is that OK? Sure. Absolutely. I'm just saying the extract was easy because all I had to take was three quarter teaspoons a day and I'm golden. You know, it's like, yeah, it is, man. Feeling great, doing good, my trainings good.

14:45 I'm getting through my weight routines nicely. I can do it without the stuff, but if it gives me that boost, I'm going to take it. But I was taking the whole leaf. Like I said, I felt like I had to gulp so much of it down to get that buzz that I needed to get going. And the experience of coming off the whole league was a different monster because I, this was only four years ago. I was like, OK, I've been taking this for almost 14 years, 15 years now. I was like, I need, I need to just, I'm going to taper. I was like, whatever that is because I didn't know. So like, I'm like, all right, I'm going to just cut. I'm going to cut everything in half. Oh, I learned real quick I cutted everything in half. So 70 grams, I'm cutting down to about 35 grams a day of that stuff.

15:30 I mean, it was my fault for going crazy. It was. It's my responsibility, you know, but it. Was 70 grams a day. Almost almost 70 grams a day. That's. That's actually that's quite a bit. That's a lot. Was that over time? Like how do you remember? Like I know it was a long time ago when you started. Do you remember how much powder you started with? And like was there just this progression of just more and more and more over time? Do you? Remember, yeah, a little bit. Then I started noticing like with even with, with any of it, but with the extract tune, I was like, oh wow, this is weird. I feel kind of weird in the middle of the night. I haven't had it two days. I'm like, I'm kind of feeling kind of weird. I'm like, what is this? I was like, oh, OK, you know, it was, it was not, I started putting it together what it was. I wasn't really researching anything. I'm just like, this feels great.

16:16 I'm going to take this. But yeah, the the, the, the extract was easy going. If I had to be without it, three days, four days, I was good to go, you know, maybe a little bit of funk, but it was gone, whatever it was. But with the with the whole leagues taking so damn much of it and not doing it right, maybe there's a science behind the holy I don't know about. And if there is, then then I I should learn something, you know, because it looks like I didn't learn anything. I'm just sitting there gulping these spoons out water boom, coffee, coffee, coffee and it it. I was feeling like the, the Nat that what people normally feel the shivers can't sleep good.

17:00 Just I was sleeping 2 1/2 hours a night for almost 8 months, tapering off that and it was starting to ruin my mental health. And then of course, having a test for the bid every day because you know, I, I didn't, I, I didn't take the ouchie, if you know what I mean. And so I'm, I'm like, you know, waking up at 5 four 4:00 in the morning, 43530 morning to go to the test center to take the piece of paper to work coming off that stuff. So the stress was like, oh, like maybe I need, maybe there's some kind of karmic connection. I need to feel this because this sucks, you know? And I'm like not sleeping. If anybody would even talk to me, I'd be just absolutely irritated. And there were being nights I'm like this, something's wrong here.

17:42 I was like, I can't be, I was like, I could have never went that far with it to begin with. And I, I just, I, I, I think I, I really think the extracts, I don't know how many people would agree with me, but I think the extract is truly where it's at. Because if I had to stop or if they decided to make it illegal, which is stupid anyway, in my opinion, but if they decided to make it illegal, I could be like, OK, no problem. Few days that I'm done on that. But I was taking it that thing that if that was on the chopping block and it was done at that time, that would have been something that would have been something that's all I can say. I was like, I was like, I don't want to give kratom a bad name because it shouldn't have a bad name. I think it should be free for everybody to use. And I did not want to slander it in any way because at the time I was hating him, going through the withdrawals from the holy, I didn't like.

18:34 And I was like, this sucks. But I was never going to get online and say, let's stop this garbage, don't do it. No, I was an irresponsible idiot and I did it wrong and I just have too much of it. It was my fault. We don't make mistakes. So you know, that's my that's my thing with with if I get off of it, if I wanted to get off of it, the extract is the way. I'm not just going to be a few days and I'm good. That's me with the other, forget it. I'll be gulping that down until I get to that feeling that I need to be able to train or work out. And then when I can't have it or it comes late in the mail or whatever it may be, I'm not going through this like, where's it? Where's it? I'm going through all this hysteria. So I've finally learned my lesson. Extract is the way.

19:16 Yeah, it's figuring out what works for you. And, you know, this kratom works differently for everyone. Yeah. So like I, I, I'm actually at my six year anniversary of consuming kratom powder every day, multiple times a day for my chronic pain. I've never had to have a tolerance break. I know lots of people have had to take tolerance breaks because if they just keep going at the rate they're going, they need more, more, more. And which sounds like what happened to you, you just taking more and more. And I I have not very sad at all and I've not had to take a tolerance break. So I've been at the same I take about 5g multiple times it's like 5-5 grams every six hours.

19:56 So like 4 times a day. So my Max is 20 grams a day which. For some people that's a lot, for others they take a little bit more. But it sounds like what you're telling me. I didn't know you were at 70 grams a day. That's all. That's a lot. We don't hear that too often. And I could see where that was hard to taper down off of because that's a lot of powder. But if extracts are working better, I think that's awesome. You know that we. Found that. Yeah, that work for you without the issue of overuse and and you know, getting to the point where you can't stop taking it. Yeah, because it was like, it was like every 3 1/2 hours I was feeling hard withdrawals, like like when I was taking that much, I should have never taken that much.

20:40 I should have kept my tolerance at at the right level. But I did. I said a few days, I can get over it. What was I wrong? So I said, OK, stop, stop the bus here. I'm like, I'm going to start writing down what I'm taking every day. I'm going to measure it. Got a scale? I listen to all the advice on Reddit, on YouTube, and everywhere else and there's a lot of very brilliant people out there that really knew how to do it. So I was taking advice from everybody and at all, I brought it all into one. I'm like, OK, I'm going to measure what I'm taking every couple of days. I'm going to take a little bit off each dose. And I was taking 8A day, 8 doses a day. So look, if you can still take it a day, but just chop off a little bit at a time while you measure it. So that's what I was doing every day with that measure, 8 times a day.

21:22 I'll do that every day writing down the log. I wish right now I don't know where I put the papers at, but and I finally got it down to 1/4 down, I think around 1/4 of a grain of just holy every day. One time a day I said, you're going to get that little bit at night to say it's nothing. It's nothing, you know, And I finally said OK tonight nothing. And then I finally slept all the way through and I realized I made it. But I still at times had those. What do they call that? That the post, forget what it's called, like a post withdrawal or something, but every so often, like twice a week, I would get that.

22:02 I'm up at 2:30 in the morning, I can't go back to sleep. That would happen every so often. And that's where the crowd was nice. OK, it's next to me. Boom, I'm sleeping another five hours. I'm golden, I'm recovered. That's what it did for me too, is it helped me recover in training. So when you sleep you out, obviously you recover. So that's what it was giving me that real hard sleep, 8 hours a night. I was strong, I was fast even for my age, you know, I'm like, this feels great. But that was, yeah, that that's my story. With that I learned. Yeah, right. Well, and I, I have to say it's, it's, it's nice when, when to hear somebody who kind of fell into, you know, the hole you went into were consuming a lot of powder, trying to taper down, trying to stop and how hard it was. I can't even imagine how difficult that must have been. I mean, just from you describing it, I get the picture. It does not sound pleasant at all. But you're also taking responsibility. So many people that we connect with through social media, they demonize the, they blame the plant. They don't take responsibility for when they overuse that amount of Kratom and they come after us. We're the bad guys to them because we're saying that, you know, kratom is great.

23:20 I mean, but we're always saying like in moderation and and responsible use, but they just don't ever take responsibility. And it's just it's nice as as a kratom consumer and advocate, like to hear your story and that like you're just taking full responsibility that you understood that you were taking too much and it wasn't a great idea. I can't even imagine how I don't see how I could get 70 grams of powder down. I mean, just the amount of powder I consume is, is enough. And it's like, but we hear people talk about that and it happens. We know that happens. But also the, the positive with extracts is you're like you've talked about, you're not having to consume all that powder. You're getting that extract form. So it's, it's more concentrated.

24:04 I mean, we, well, we talked to a lot of people that are new to kratom in our community online and we're always trying to educate people to understand what they're consuming. Because sometimes they go into a smoke shop and the smoke shops point to the extracts and they don't, they hear us talk about how great this is. But we typically are talking about powder, which you know, can be quite different from extracts. And we just trying to make sure people understand exactly what you're consuming. And especially if an extract is multiple servings because sometimes in very small print it'll be like multiple servings, but people see it looking like the five hour G any energy drink that you just down the whole bottle. So, yeah, so we're just only trying to make sure people at least read exactly the packaging of what they're consuming and know what it is. You know that that's usually our take on it in the community. Just know what you're consuming and and you know, be responsible.

25:03 But your story, John, is fascinating of like how especially how I discovered you from your video talking about using kratom for grappling. I didn't when I saw your video. I have to say, I didn't know what grappling was. I had to go Google it to like, you know, learn about it. But I figured, I figured it was like an MMA kind of thing like you had said earlier. Yeah, it's part of it. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's nobody else I know takes it for training. I do, I've, I've, I've recommended it to people, but I am, I'm always educating them too. And I wish I was more educated with the holy thing, but you know, you live and learn. That's me. Trial by fire.

25:45 Yeah, and it happens. I mean, that's life, you know, that's real life. And I know some people go through that and then get, get to the other side and are more educated and can make better, you know, better decisions on moving forward, whether to stop completely or like in your case where you just switch to the extracts and you, and from what you're telling us, it works great for you and helps you with your training, which is always great to hear. Is it helping you with any of the pain issues that you've had? Yeah, it does gets me through that too, whether whether I'm, if I'm grappling or lifting weights, it gets me like if I'm contorted in all these positions and grappling, I'm like, I couldn't, I can't even show it to you.

26:30 You know, you get in these weird positions where you get, you know, your back is twisted, your arm is this way, your legs this way. You just imagine wrestling and of course being in my age and wrestling around with 20 year old kids, you know, it's like that's, that's a whole different beast now. I've been doing this for 30 years, but you know, it catches up to you a little bit. It gets, it gets me through those. But the pain, yeah, it gets me through it because I'll take it after training also. Like I'll take it a little bit before, like 3:00 PM and then, you know, have my coffee and all that. I'll lift weights for an hour and then I'll go do my class. And I teach too. I'm a teacher, so I'm, I got to coach the guy. So that really it's good. It's good for the whole thing.

27:10 It just helps me. It gets me into that vibe too. Like I'm teaching because it makes you want to talk a lot anyway. So I'm like, I'm like teaching them how to do all this stuff and it's I'm feeling good the whole time. And now I got to get physical with them. So I trained with them later. That's a lot for a guy my age going from weightlifting into hard wrestling with a bunch of guys. So, you know, and, and for the pain, it gets me through there. Whatever's, whatever may be hurting on me with the adrenaline rush and of course the cratum inside me now I'm saying cratum that's. My fault, sorry. That's all good. It's, it's helping me, it's helping me get through it all. So I don't think about the pigment. It just sort of gets my mind off of it. And of course, yes, ibuprofen is a part of my vitamin path, you know, so I'm taking sometimes 400 milligrams of I'd use after the training just so the muscles come down a little bit. But I don't take that crap all day. But, but ibuprofen is also a part of a part of that. So it's like I use a little eye view at the night, my magnesium and zinc, and I am sleeping, I am sleeping, I'm recovering and I can do it the next day.

28:17 So yeah, for the pain, absolutely. It's smashed, the pain. That's excellent. That's great to hear. Is, is kratom popular with the grappling community? Is this something that that you know your your fellow community? Do they, are they aware of kratom? Do they know much about it? I, I, I brought it up to them. A lot of people throughout the years that I've been here in Germany, but, and a lot of them are loving stuff. I'm like, I'm like, just be careful, man. Don't get too crazy. Just, you know, just take a little bit for training, know what you're doing, read about it, educate yourself. They got German websites that talk about it, you know, so, but yeah, they, I always try to educate them on it, saying look, just a little bit and then it'll get you through.

29:01 And I don't know if it's super popular. I'm pretty sure that there are gyms out there where people do use it. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know and I don't think so. But there are people in my training that know about it. There's one guy who went to Thailand, or was it Thailand? Yeah, I was in Thailand and he said a lot of the Thais before they do Thai boxing, they'll be they'll be taking it. They'll they'll sneak up a little drink and start taking Grab and then they'll start doing Thai boxing. So yeah, the ties use it for their sport, believe it or not. So yeah. That might be like their secret weapon. Like, we got this special leap and we like our little tea. Yeah. Yeah. Because I I know over in Southeast Asia, you know, it's been used for thousands of years over there.

29:46 Not so much the way we do it in America. I mean, it's mostly like them just, you know, making a tea, you know, putting the leaves in a pot, boiling it, making a nice little tea that they drink all day. But yeah, it's probably like their little secret potion to to do really well, you know, in the ring. That's so interesting. But also you're over in Germany. I have really been keeping up with kratom legalities overseas. I know there's some countries in Europe that have been kratom and I don't know, I just haven't heard a whole lot. So what was? So in Germany everything's fine, Like there's no issues with kratom and nothing that comes up in government about it. So, you know, like I said before I alluded to it, it was in Belgium.

30:29 They they completely banned it. And and so now Germany wants, you know, it's following suit there. So they've got a whole community of people over here that are fighting against it and rightfully so, including the website where I get it from. They've been very good to meet these people. They're very good. They're very good about delivery product, you know, quality and everything else. But yeah, we've got a community of people that are fighting against it. As far as Germany, it's in a Gray area. You know, if I order it from America, which I did when I first moved here, I was getting it from the I am, I am sham. And it would get here in about a week and I would pay all the fees or whatever and it would get here and it was fine. It was coming for about a couple months, then all of a sudden I got the custom stamp and I had to go through that process.

31:14 So going through that bureaucratic bullshit they did the stuff from America was something. So I mean, I'm like, OK, oh, it's probably medicine, I don't know. But it's like, this is a yeah, but it's not illegal, man. You know, I was like, yeah, but we're going to have to test it. And trust me, in Germany, you ain't got a choice. It's a different, it's a different beast here. They can do whatever they want. The authorities, we can kind of, we can kind of fight against our government, sort of an American really. But we can, there's loopholes over here. It's absolution. You know, it's like, now we're going to take it and we're going to test it. So there I am, you know, two days away from it, going through withdrawals a little bit. You know, I'm like, fuck, you know, like this sucks. And so I had to wait.

31:54 I had no anywhere else to get anymore. So I just had to man up through it and and I probably got it back in six weeks. And they said, oh, everything's good. You can have this. Thanks. Wow. Yeah. They either destroy it or they give it back to you. It's like you want to destroy it. I was like, Nah, give it back to me. It was my property. I paid for that. You know, it's like, so, yeah, but it's a pain. That's why you got to order it within the EU. Don't, don't be like, I'll tell, I'll tell anybody over here, you know, don't order it from outside the country. You're going to get a little bit of an issue with it, with customs. So yeah. But otherwise there's Europeans that do take it. I think Germany has 1.1 million advocates of it. So it's like there's there, there's a bunch of people here that you, they even got some Youtubes. It's all in German though.

32:42 You want to understand it? Unless they've got some subtitles, but there's some German YouTube channels that talk about it and what it's done for them too. So yeah. Wow, that's interesting. I did not know that. OK. Do they sell it in shops? Like is this something you just get like, you know, here smoke shops, all smoke shops sell it all over the country. But. I think, I think so they might maybe. I lived, I lived near Heidelberg, which is South, southwest, close to the Black Forest. I think at Mannheim they might, Mannheim is like 30 minutes north, close to closer to Frankfurt. So I think so. I'm pretty sure there's some shops, but it's like you're driving the Timbuktu, you know, to go to go get it. And it's like I, I don't even bother now. When I was in Greece, I found it and I was in Athens, Greece recently and I found a shop.

33:30 I just looked it up and they had the oil, you know, the the drops like so that was that was interesting. But they worked good. It was very good. It was white vein and it worked very well. I'm like, it's not really good. And they only had whole leaf powder like another white vein. So I just bought both just to see and I bought them comma because they had comma extract. So I bought all three of them just to see what it was like quality. It was quality. It was pretty good. So in Greece, I think they, Greece doesn't care. It's like whatever they can have that stuff, they can have whatever. They don't get too many problems in that way, you know, So, but that was my experience in Greece and here, but that's all I can really, I can only speak on those two.

34:12 The Netherlands, no problem, you know, but the Netherlands doesn't have Cobb. It's like really like I love Cobb. You know, when I lived in West Palm Beach, I drink Cobb all the time too with the grass. And they have their special little drinks called a, you know, a black Pearl or a, they have a special name for it. But it's, it's a great combination. And that really, really does it for you as far as pain goes, it really helps everything. So I mean this stuff to be available over here, but it is what it is. But in the Netherlands, it's marijuana or, you know, Cradam or whatever else. But outside of that, I don't think they'll have Kava. But but the Netherlands, it's cool. They they're pretty loose with it. And the company that I get from in the Netherlands, it is in the Netherlands, I mean, and they have a firm in Germany that just distributes it whenever anybody orders. So they don't put up with customs because they have a firm I think in Germany or something like that, you know, so it's hopefully I'm not, you know, getting them in trouble or something, but I think they know how to do it. They can have any of their products here and then distribute.

35:17 But in Germany, it's, I think it's, it might be a little bit of a weird situation for people trying to get it in here and sell it from a shop. I think that might, I don't know, but I could imagine they're pretty picky over here. So yeah, is what it is. Yeah, may not be worth like setting up shop and having to deal with all the government issues that, you know, prop up. Yeah. Well, you know, over here in America, there's always a constant threat of kratom getting taken away. And it's just, it's, it's such a pain to deal with. It's always something because me and my fellow kratom consumer slash advocates, we're always staying on top of the latest legal issues here in the US. And it's just this constant where all of a sudden there'll be some legislator in some state that wants to just ban it. And you know, it's, it's a process typically. And you know, we'll watch some of these hearings online and talk about it.

36:12 I even have a little live stream show called the kratom Gals where me and some of my friends, we get together, we watch different videos we find on on YouTube and TikTok. And then if there's hearings about possibly banning kratom, we'll watch those and talk about just to help educate everybody and just all of us be informed of like all the different things that go on in the world of kratom. But it's so frustrating. It seems like there's always some community that wants to ban it lately across, whereas whereas a city or a state, there's always it's always under threat. Yeah, I mean, everybody always wants to tell everybody what to do. You know, it's like, I'm not into that. Like I said, my libertarian ways don't don't go anywhere in Germany. So I just kind of have to flow with whatever happens here. But, you know, that's, that's me. I'm just like, just leave me alone. And, you know, like I don't, I'll, I'll do, I'm an adult and I'll do what I feel like I need to do. And if something happens and I'll deal with it like a man, you know, you're an adult, right? That's what I want to ask you.

37:10 That's what you are. Yeah. But you know how they are the real pro government, I say. And it comes from both sides of the spectrum too. Believe me. It's like everybody, it's not, nobody's saying nobody's special on either side. Everybody always wants to control something on the political right or left. And it's like, it's like, fucking fuck off, leave me alone. You know, there's always somebody in there that maybe they, I don't know, maybe they knew somebody. Oh, I knew somebody that got really sick on it. And then people talk, no, don't take that shit. It's sick. And then it goes to the right ear and then it just gets fucking stamped. And that happens often too, where it just gets a bad name and it's very uneducated. Like when they talk about it, it's such uneducated opinions on it.

37:53 And it's like, don't speak on something unless you've got all the fucking backs, man. Exactly. We, we see that all the time with these Kranem band hearings where you get these people, they're literally they're, they're the decision makers, the legislators and they're Googling kratom. They don't even know what it is. They don't know how to pronounce it yet. They're making decisions on it. So it's incredibly frustrating. How long have you been over in Germany? Like how long since you've been in the US that you've been overseas? Oh, I've been here close to 18 years. Oh, OK. Yeah, I've been here a long time. But I came and visited every. So I was just over there in in January through February. I was just over there and I was taking some of the crowd. I'm over there.

38:35 And it was it was pretty good. I still like to stop here better. I don't know, I just, I like it here. Maybe the Netherlands has a special sauce, you know. Maybe, maybe or maybe maybe since they're a little closer to Asia, maybe there's just something better about when they get it versus when it makes it all the way over to the US. Who knows what since you travel though, like what are how how? People ask this all the time, Like how to travel with kratom? What are your thoughts on that? I've traveled with it, yes. Well, I've only gone back and forth as far as plane rides go to Greece and in America, so I never used any other airports around anywhere else.

39:19 But if I was to give any advice to anybody as I look up the laws of the country number one, and see what they have on crowd, if you're going to go to a country where it's banned, then I suggest you don't bring it with you. Otherwise, how I travel with it, I don't use Baggies #1 I'll put it, I'll put it in a vitamin bottle with zinc or something that says zinc on it and I'll have my other vitamins with me. But I'll just stick it in one of those and like dump it inside the bottle and just have it on my carry on. Nobody gives a shit. It goes through the bang and it's done. I got a buddy of mine who literally took out Baggies of cava and Pradam and they let it pass through with it and you're, I'm like, dude, you really did that. You just Baggies?

40:02 Out of the pocket, he just didn't care and then he didn't get bothered. But I like to just be very discreet. So that's how I do it. I take a vitamin bottle that's like those dark ones, you know, and I just pour it in there and it's just a part of all my toothbrush and my whatever else I bring with me with my various whatnot and bring on the plane. So that's how I do it. But just make sure wherever it is you go that it's not illegal there because you're going to run into some issues if they find it. So that's my advice to those people. And also I'm going to go back to the quarter teaspoon. This is the best way to try the extract. Take a little bit of your quarter teaspoon at a time, a little bit of time. Give it time. Take a little bit more until you reach your area. Don't just sit there and gulp it. That's my advice.

40:47 Also with that, I want to get that as far as traveling goes, be smart. Yeah, yeah, but absolutely be smart for sure. Definitely research the laws where even in the US, when people are saying they're travelling within the US, you know, if you have a layover somewhere, like know what the laws are everywhere you're going to be, any part you're touched down in because. But also, even when you're driving and travelling, you know, we hear stories about truck drivers that like drive all over the US and they're weren't necessarily aware that there are a handful of states where it is banned to the point that's considered Schedule 1 narcotic that you'd go to jail if you're caught with it. So it's always knowing like wherever you're traveling by by car, by by plane or anywhere, just like what are the laws in every place you're going to be in traveling in just to know and just, you know, be safe.

41:43 But yeah, I like how how you discreetly bring kratom. I've heard a lot of people say do it the way you describe. There's also a quite a few people that say, you know what, just bring it in the package. It comes in unopened, like, you know, not to try to hide it. I don't know, that kind of makes me nervous. I, but the last time I traveled on plane, I did just have some small packages of kratom powder in the original packaging. I had no issues. Everywhere I was going was safe to, to travel to. But it's like, whatever it is that makes you most comfortable, right? And I mean, I've, I've been like, I think I want to discreetly put it in a vitamin bottle and I was going to do that.

42:24 But then at the last minute I changed my mind. But it's just, I think it pulls down to what are you comfortable doing? But it's great you're discussing this with us on the podcast because people like to hear from other people, like what was their experience? How did they do it? And since we were talking about, you know, with your travels and stuff, I thought, you know, it'd be helpful if people knew like, how did you travel with your Kratom? And I guarantee you somebody's listening going, that's a great idea. And next time I travel with my Kratom, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm going to do like what John says. That's a great idea. I mean, it's it's always worked for me. It's always, I mean, don't get me wrong, I've done it with a baggie before, but you know, it's like, but with their X-ray machines, they see this thing, it looks like a baggie and like, Oh, well, what is this could and they just decide to fuck with you. You know, it's like, I just, I just avoid all that shit. And if ever it did came up in the bottle, like what is this? I will just tell them what it is as long as I'm not going to a country where it's illegal, you know, otherwise you shouldn't be bringing it in the first place.

43:21 But yeah, I would just be be honest with them. And that's that's what that is. I that's it. What are they going to do? That might keep you in a room for a couple minutes and then figure it out and then let me go. It's, yeah, it's, I mean, I think it can be kind of a hassle maybe to travel with. No, like it just depends on where you go. Some places they just make their own dandy rules and who knows, you know, who knows? But I traveled. I don't go to third world countries or anything like that. So I'm usually just going back and forth from Europe to the States whenever I go. That's my experience. I use a vitamin bottle. Yeah, yeah, I think I think that's some pretty darn good advice.

44:02 Well, this has been such a great conversation, John, Really great getting to know you better, hearing your personal journey with kratom. Now the last question for you, knowing, of course, knowing everything you know now about kratom and you know, I mean, you've been at this a long time. I don't know if I've met anybody that started consuming Kratom that far back. I mean, gosh, you're just about at 20 years now. But knowing everything you know now, what advice would you give someone just now starting to kind of help them in the kratom journey? I know you've already mentioned a few times about, you know, going really slow and using the quarter teaspoon and stuff. But what would be like the different types of advice you give to somebody that just wants to give this a go and get started, but just are trying to educate themselves?

44:43 Well, I mean, of course, definitely, you know, get online and and Google it and get or just get somewhere to find the right information. Number one, just research it, read it. See the people over here, they do a lot of that. They're like, I want to find out that they're like very OK, I want, I want to see what's going on. Some people are just see. So I would suggest you know, that that they look it up and educate themselves on it and get on sites like I mean, people always smash Reddit and all those well, like Reddit's got a lot of good information. I would say get on Reddit or a lot of these other websites or just get with somebody that has taken before us that's experienced with it and let them give you some advice. Also, if your local cobble bar has it, you know, maybe maybe somebody there can give you advice, but they like to stay very discreet those cobble bars.

45:34 So I probably wouldn't be a good idea either, you know, just research it and and get on like Reddit. You could be pretty free about how you talk about things. I learned so much on that from other people. And, and you could just put the question down or even in Quora, you know, and just say, you know, for extract, how should I, there's always going to be somebody with a smart answer. There's always going to be somebody with a stupid answer, but there's always going to be somebody with a smart answer that will give you the proper advice on how to take an extract, whether it be a 10XA20X or whatever, or whatever it is that they, they created. Like, especially with extracts, you know, make sure you, I mean, my, my thing is 1/4 teaspoon, right? But you can go with an eighth of a teaspoon and be just fine with extracts.

46:17 I think for anybody that's start off with an 8, see what it's like and then, you know, and then if there's something, then just keep, if it doesn't, you're not quite getting it and feeling it and just take a little bit more until just a little bit tiny bit micro micro. And that's that's how you learn or like I said, research Reddit Cora something that's going to give you some good advice on how to take it. That's my advice. Excellent advice. Well, thank you so much, John for being on the podcast and sharing your journey with us. It's always interesting hearing people's stories. I really appreciate your time. I thank you. I appreciate it. I had fun.