Ep 68: Abram Jacobson Talks Kratom, Kava, and Responsible Use

0:00 I can't say enough positive things about initially stepping into kratom and again, coming from a recreational perspective because I wasn't overcoming an addiction at the time and you know, I wasn't in any significant pain. I I will say when I have hurt myself, I'm. I. Refuse to take any sort of pharmaceutical opiates. So a little bit of. Kratom goes a long way for my pain. You know I'm not allowed to tell people kratom helps with pain. That's the sticky part, but I can tell. You from personal experience, absolutely. It has helped me deal with lower back issues and stuff when I've hurt myself at the gym without getting me high, you know, and I think that that's invaluable. So I'm here with Abraham, somebody I met because I was on NBC Nightly News.

0:55 If you don't know, definitely check it out. I'll make sure there's a link to it in the show notes. But I was recently on the national news and Abraham reached out to me to chat and I invited him to come on the podcast. So Abraham, I'm so glad we connected from a little news story I did recently. Appreciate you doing that. Absolutely I was. Delighted to see that for once there was a news format that wasn't totally biased against kratom, so when I saw that you were. Out there I was like I got. To find a way to. Reach out to her. See if there's some synergy here. I'm so glad you did. Well, when NBC producers reached out to me, they found me through my through this podcast, which is awesome. And that is cool.

1:39 They were very impressed with my story. We had a long talk on the phone and super impressed. And next thing you know, they're flying out to my home to spend hours with me, interviewing me. They they wanted to film me making kratom and consuming it, having me sit right here in this chair and doing my podcast. And it was a wonderful experience. But I knew it was going to be a short news segment. I knew they did tell me they would be somebody else there interviewing for the other side of kratom, but overall I think that was pretty balanced. Usually don't see anything positive about kratom in national news. Not at all. And it's a, it's a stark contrast to what I experienced personally when the Tampa Bay Times reached out to me because they produced a pretty terrible article.

2:21 We as a team, we actually. Showed up to protest that article, but. You could tell it was going to be a negative spin from the moment I talked to the journalist. And so, yeah, it was a breath of fresh air. I was, I was delighted to see it because we need representation that's neutral. We need representation that's positive because the vast majority of it is is just. It paints a terrible picture for people who want to consider kratomism as another alternative. Yeah, absolutely. And that's one of the reasons why I started this podcast. I've been consuming kratom daily for six years for my chronic pain. It's been a game changer for me and it is for so many other people I talked to, but not just people that suffer from chronic pain. There's so many other ailments and it's just an interesting plant that there's not enough information about it, like good positive, factual information. And I think there's nothing better than first hand experience from others and just hearing these kratom stories. So I'm really interested to hear your story about how you got started.

3:20 So why don't you tell us like life before kratom and what was going on in your life? For sure. I am one of the. Proud, proud. Recreational kratom users OK, I want to make that very clear. I I don't have any chronic ailments. I'm blessed to not have chronic pain that I deal with. Fitness is a huge part of my life and kratom plugs in so well with my life that I know its potential for others is tremendous. You know, growing up, I had a single mom, she was a superwoman. She, I can't say enough positive things about her. I talked to her multiple times a week. She was amazing. But I I was a goody 2 shoes I played. Violin, I was homeschooled.

4:02 I, I did martial arts and at some point in time growing up without a dad, you know, being a little bit different because if you're growing up as a young man and you play the violin, you're not exactly the cool kid. I figured out that I could make a lot more friends if I started to do the kind of cruddy things that my friends were getting into. So, you know, drugs were pretty much my first foray into making my own decisions. They were my decisions, but they weren't necessarily. Good decisions, so. Growing up I had the goody 2 shoes era and then I got into the rough patch and eventually around the age of 20 I drove up to New York to spend a month with my. Biological father for the. First time in my life and it was at that moment when I decided to get my butt into gear and try and become what my mom worked so hard to make me be.

4:51 But I knew nothing about kratom. I'm 34 years old and from my 20s, I would say until about 24 is when I was first introduced to kratom. So about 10 years ago, I had no idea that there were plants that could be an exit door or the lesser of many evils, you know? I mean, obviously through college I drank a lot, I partied a lot. But I did well in school and I used to work in hospitality at Red Lobster of all places. I worked at three different locations. I graduated debt free from college by waiting tables and having roommates. So my first discovery of kratom came along with Kava.

5:32 But it was. Because we went to the beach in Saint Petersburg. Florida, which is where I still reside. And on our. Beach Tuesday trip. My friend Nicholas Jackson said, hey, guess what, man? I just tried some Kava and I'm like, what's that? He's like, well, it's kind of like alcohol, gives you a mild buzz. Blah. Blah blah. So we we had our whole day. Of drinking and partying at the beach. And on my way home, I saw Bula. Cafe which is a Kaaba. Bar in Saint Pete's one of the 1st and I busted AU turn and I popped in there and I can still remember my first ever Kaaba tender. His name was Blake and my first ever friend from over 10 years ago, Sean and I sat down at the. Bar I had Kava. And I had Kraven and I had a magical time talking with Sean and Blake and the other people that were in there.

6:17 This big question kind of like popped into my head. Where was this stuff when I was a a teenager? Where? We didn't know where it what it was. But. Anyways, from that point forth, I knew that I found a second home and I used to live in Tampa. So I would drive across the bridge. Four or five or six times a week. Just to go to this Kaaba bar. And it was the first time in my life where I made friends that were not a consequence of school. Or work. I met a whole new circle of people. I met people who were former addicts. I met other college kids. I met people who were there recreationally and I met people who were there therapeutically. And so that was my first time at Bula Cafe having kratom and Kava together. They go hand in hand for me and from that point forth. I was.

7:06 I was hooked, not in like a bad way or a life destroying way. Actually there were periods of time where I would just quit taking kratom all together to see is it the kratom and Kava that's making me come to this. Place or is it actually? The sense of community that I feel. And during those times where I would take a hiatus from Kava or kratom, I learned that, hey, it's the atmosphere too, and I love it. And so I've been drinking kratom tea or taking kratom products for 10 years and hopefully that answers your question. But Kava bars? They were my introduction. That is so interesting. I know in Florida that is such a big booming industry we just don't have as many cava bars. I I live in Houston which is the 4th largest city in the country and I only know of 1 and it's like way out north of town. It's pretty far from where I live. But why isn't that so popular in Florida you think? I've always been curious about that. Well, yeah.

8:04 Great question by the way. I think I've been to that Cava bar in Houston. I travel a lot and I think it's called the Elixir Lounge, not mistaken. Very cool place in a tiny little town. It's awesome. So there's some interesting things about Florida 1 is that up until recently, real estate prices are very low. And the pace of the of the state is pretty chill. Unless you're in Miami. But. I would say that between Bula and low tide they were kind of like and the knock down on the east. Coast of Florida, they. Were kind of like the formative members of Kava bars in the state of Florida and once they gained a significant enough following pretty much anybody that walked into one of these Kava bars that had a breath of entrepreneurial spirit said I'm going to open one of these one day, see how well they're doing, see what kind of culture and community they're creating.

8:53 I want to do that myself, right. So I think the seed gets planted. There's a community. That rallies. Rallies. Behind the plants, people with entrepreneurial spirit decide they want to step up and they want to, they want to go out on a limb and adventure and and make their own business. And so I think in Florida, we've got like 300 Kaaba. Bars. But it matches. The vibe a lot of these places are. Very island themed, you know we've. Got the beach right here. As to why Texas? It just hasn't. Taken off yet the only thing I can think. Of is the pace of the city in Houston. It's so busy, it's so fast-paced. It compresses people. And it's hard to imagine a community within Houston having the time to sit down and bond. Of course they can.

9:40 But then when you can't find a good commercial real estate piece that you know has adequate parking, just it's hard. It's hard to do. My hope is that in the next 10 years, there will be hundreds of CAVA bars in the state of Texas and dozens in any other state. They can support them. I would rather see more CAVA. Bars that sell. Kratom and cava than alcohol bars. They're far more beneficial to the community. Yeah, I totally agree. So when you started going to this Kava bar 10 years ago, did you just initially just try the Kava drinks or were you doing the Kava kratom drinks or when did you like just try kratom? Like I don't know a whole lot about Kava bars, but I know they typically sell a variety of drinks. They do great question.

10:23 So I I'm a weird. Bird. I will try any food twice. My mom going back on her for a second, you know, she's always been about holistic medicine and turmeric and flaxseed and all these things. So my palate isn't totally offended with earthy flavors. So when I was there the first time I tried both of them. I tried cava, I tried kratom. Arguably I. Probably felt the kratom. And thought it was the cava, right? It took me a long time to cultivate a taste for cava and to understand how it makes my body feel. But yeah, I mean. There. Was a period of time where I was staying up too late during the week and I was drinking too much kratom tea and I had to tone back as a result.

11:08 Even now, while I take kratom daily, I don't take kratom past a certain point in the evening or. Cava. For that matter. Or alcohol. If I do have a beer or two, I try to cut it off about 3 hours before I go to sleep because. Anything I seem to take hurts my sleep quality. But. Yeah, I jumped in with both feet to both plants right off the bat. Yeah, you know, I, I've been hearing about cava so much for years and I finally tried some last week, some cava shot. It's just a cava only shot from a, a vendor that, that I use their Kratom and I finally decided to try it and I was super impressed. Like it's like a really nice chill feeling you get from it. I didn't take it with my Kratom.

11:53 I mean maybe an hour or two apart, but I can see why less popular. And then you got all these kratom cava drinks, Although it seems like a lot of them get overused, like people just drink too many of them and have issues because of it. But it seems like it responsible use is is a great botanical. Yeah, it is. You know, so this this misinformation campaign against kratom and cava, you'll find that in the studies that were done on cava in particular, they tried to ban it a long time ago. Fortunately, it seems like Cava has been grandfathered into all 50 states but. They took a bunch of. Rats that were sick, they had like end stage liver failure and gave these rats an inhumane amount of cava extract.

12:38 The study doesn't tell you what the percentage of the extract was, how it was extracted, whether or not it was combined with alcohol, and concludes by saying that cava. Causes liver toxicity. You know, it's like the equivalent of taking unhealthy me who's an alcoholic with a failing liver and giving me like 5 or 6. Kilos of Kava every. Day until I die, right? So Kava from what I can tell and I, you know, I work with the plant from what? I can tell it has a little bit of a reverse. Tolerance. So the first time you try Kava, you're really not going to feel it takes. Subsequent, use to get an. Idea of how it's going to affect you.

13:18 But. It seems like Kava is probably the most benevolent intoxicant on the planet. Does not seem to be habit forming. It doesn't seem to be harmful to the body unless you drink alcohol in conjunction with Kava. Because they're both processed by the same. Enzymes in the liver. It seems to affect the same parts of the brain that alcohol does. But beneficial thing about Kava is you don't get a hangover effect. If you do feel buzzed from Cava the. Sensation doesn't last very long. It will. Fade away quite quickly. And you can actually eat spicy food. Apparently that helps it go away. But it's a topical anesthetic, so it does numb the mouth. It's.

13:59 It's a. Little bit of a muscle relaxer. So it has benefits in post workout scenarios. It has benefits to help you unwind socially, diminish anxiety, things of that nature. And I've I mean again, how much anecdotal evidence do you have in your life until it becomes substantial? I've been going to cava bars for 10 years and between kratom and cava I have seen dozens. Of people who were ravished by addiction, whether it was alcohol, opiates or other drugs, that. Now hold down jobs. OK, that have started. Families have gotten married, have had kids, have had dogs. All sorts of stuff they've come. Back to life by going to these places and having kratom or cava.

14:41 So while I like to use that and swing it around as a great example. It's. A prolific example. I mean, you go to any Kaaba bar in the state of Florida right now and you might be sitting down next to somebody whose life is night and day different from what it used to. Be with alcohol specifically, I would say that vast majority of times. People who develop a problem with alcohol. That can. Be the most harmful addiction of all because it's so socially acceptable. Yeah. Yeah. You know what's so interesting with this podcast, so many interviews I've done with this where people are telling me about, oh, they struggled with a drug addiction or they have chronic pain issues like myself. And we'll talk about it.

15:25 And then at some point they'll say, you know, since using kratom, I don't ever have the desire to drink anymore. Like it's a secondary thing they got out of it. I know there are plenty of people do use kratom specifically to stop using alcohol to help help with that alcohol addiction. But it's interesting about how many people like weren't using kratom for that. They're using it for something else that was a bigger problem in their life. But it was almost like, oh, the cherry on top, like, you know, I mean, I've had I've, I've interviewed somebody for this podcast who was a hardcore drug addict and Kratom has changed her life. And she was telling me in the interview, like, I have a six pack of beer that's been in my fridge for a longest time.

16:08 Like normally it wouldn't last very long. She goes, I have no desire to drink it. I'm going to pour it out. It's just amazing because people are not thinking of that at the time that they're consuming. But then they're like wow, I realize I don't crave alcohol anymore. Yeah. I mean, look, alcohol has been used as a tool to manipulate society. For a lot. Longer than either of us have been alive. I, I, I love Stoic philosophy. And if you read Marcus Aurelius Meditations, he'll talk about, you know, basically that alcohol is used to dull the masses. So. Why would I be? Interested in booze and I have a lot of alcohol at my house that collects. Dust. Why would I be?

16:48 Interested in something that's going to make me feel horrible the next day. Every. Single time I drive down the road. Again, I mentioned this to you before we got on this call, that I worked in the tobacco industry and I saw how harshly regulated tobacco was, and for good reason. I know it's not good for you. But if I can drive. Down the road and see a billboard for a watermelon flavored seltzer that has alcohol and that doesn't appeal to children. But. A watermelon flavored cigarillo appeals to children in this band. We have a major case of hypocrisy going on in this country. Alcohol for. Me, you know, I've had some magical nights where I went out with the boys or my friends or Co workers. We had a blast.

17:31 The next day I woke up and said, Gee, that was that was amazing. Every ad you see for Budweiser. Makes it appear that that moment is magical when you have alcohol by your side. But nine times, maybe 95 times out of 100 or 99 out of 100, when you go out to a bar, it's not magical. You get bored, you know. You're like, let me go play some darts. You're having a an uninspired conversation with a colleague and you wake up the next day and you pay for it. So. When you can go to a kratom bar and sit down and have a kratom tea, have an amazing conversation, wake up the next day and not skip a beat, not feel hungover and not feel lethargic. Go to work, have a great day. You're not. Putting on weight because you're drinking a six pack of beer every night, you're drinking something that has 0 calories, maybe a little lemon and some sweetener in there. But yeah, unintended consequence for sure is that it's a lot harder for me to justify going out and drinking when I have kratom in my life.

18:29 And I think that's amazing. Obviously alcohol companies don't want to hear that. They don't want to see it. But. I think our society is calling for that. I just saw a study that said Gen. Z is the is the lowest rate of consumption of alcohol out of any generation we've had in the last 100 years. And I think that's amazing because they're looking for something else, whether it's kratom or not, you know, remains to be seen. But if they're not interested in drinking like our like, you know I was or you know, my parents generation was, I think society will be better for it. Yeah, I I agree. So let's go back to like when you first started kratom. How? Tell us about your experience when you first started with that?

19:09 Like how? How did it impact your daily life and overall well-being? Well, I I can tell you I had some. Sometimes where I over consumed it before I really figured out what my appropriate dosage. Level is, you know there. Were sometimes where I got nausea but you know initially what I noticed is that when I took kratom I was. More talkative. I felt like I was a better listener. And I was kind of more in tune with what was going on. Again, this was of course in tandem with the Kava. Bar. So I became. Kind of like obsessed with being a social butterfly, getting out there interacting and meeting people and it. Helped me decompress. Big time.

19:51 I mean, I was just starting a new career. I was learning everything I possibly could. I was pushing. I was burning the candle at both ends, so they say. And for me, kratom was a great release button that didn't necessarily harm my professional trajectory because I wasn't hungover. You know, I was getting into the office on time and it gave me something to look forward to when my day was through. So yeah, I can't say enough positive things about initially stepping into kratom and again, coming from a recreational perspective. Because. I wasn't overcoming an addiction at the time and you know, I wasn't in any significant pain. I will say when I have hurt myself, I'm I refuse to take any sort of pharmaceutical.

20:34 Opiates. So a little bit of kratom. Goes a long way for my pain. You know I'm not allowed to tell people kratom helps with pain. That's. The sticky part, but I can tell you from. Personal experience, absolutely. It has helped me deal with lower back issues and stuff when I've hurt myself at the gym without getting me high, you know, and I think that that's invaluable. Oh yeah, for sure. Do you, do you consume kratom daily or just as you feel like is something you want to get? Like, you know, being a recreational user, I'm sure is very different from those of us, like myself, suffer from chronic pain and like I need to take it every day. So I so I'm not suffering from pain and not having to take pharmaceuticals. Yeah, I so I do.

21:19 I take it every day. I take these little chewable. Tablets, they're they're a medium. Dosage I would. Say the medium dosage, 45 milligrams of mitrogenene per tablet. I might take two or three of those a day. I cut myself off usually in the afternoon and then when I want to get some social. Socialization. In and I don't want to take kratom, I take some cava I can tell you you know, not to emphasize on this, but because I work in the industry at times I'm at trade shows interacting with people and I'll take product with them so sometimes my consumption goes through the. Roof with kratom. And I have to taper. It back but.

21:59 It's I don't skip a beat. It's as simple as me deciding to just have two chewable tablets the next day. But again, I'm I'm not coming from a former opiate addict perspective. I know that for some of my friends who were formerly addicted to heroin, offsetting the withdrawal from heroin with kratom just means you pay the. Piper at a later day if you don't have. Your kratom. So since I don't have those pathways developed in my body, I've never really had any significant withdrawal when tapering off of kratom or even if I take a tolerance break. But yeah, I first thing I do, I wake up, I drink some water, I go to the gym, I work out for about an hour. And then once I get into the office around 10:00, I'd say I. I take.

22:42 My first bit of kratom there's. Products out there that are super strong. That's not my cup of tea to speak on the benefits that I get from it, I feel like. Have you? Seen the movie Limitless? Yes, yeah. Great, great movie, right? Obviously, nootropic sales in this country spiked after that movie because people were like, it's got to be possible to take a little pill that. You know, boost your productivity. Obviously, kratom is nowhere near me turning $100 into $1,000,000 in the Stock Exchange today. But I feel like I get some pep in my step. It gives me some positivity, you know, a little extra energy and maybe helps to put me into a state of flow so that when I am working I can stay focused.

23:31 I know for a fact. That I have ADHDI. Think mine is caused. Purely. By environment that I have a smartphone with me, I get my emails, texts, phone calls and social media. But with kratom, it helps me dial it in, stay focused and get things done. So when taking those super heavy dosed kratom products, it makes me more relaxed and sedative. And that's not what I'm looking for, you know, doesn't make any sense to. Go. Hit the gym and get a workout in if I feel like sleeping on the couch. I understand some people need that level of strength with kratom products in order to feel OK, but for me medium. Medium is my sweet spot.

24:16 Yeah, so I know there are plenty of people that do use kratom recreationally, but they you hear stories about how they overuse and they'll sometimes come into my social media comments and badmouth kratom because they just used it just to use it and went crazy with it. So like for you being more of a recreational kratom consumer, what kind of advice would you give to somebody of like, hey, like this is not something you just take a whole bunch of because you can run into problems. Like do you ever talk to people? I mean, I know as a kratom vendor, you can't talk about certain things, but I mean, just in general, how you know, like what kind of ways can you talk to or even just give me advice on how to talk to people about it? Because they'll be people.

25:06 They're just, they're just casual consumers that just recreational, but they just definitely go a little crazy and then complain about how they had issues stopping. Well, I could probably write a thesis. On this, I think the vast majority of us are always trying to run away from any sort of responsibility that we might have had to ourselves. But I can tell you, I think I I summed this up for a friend of mine. He's an alcoholic. He no longer drinks. I said. Listen man when you take kratom and it feels good. Do you like that he goes Yeah, said OK. Do you consider yourself to be a spoiled brat? He goes no.

25:49 Why? I said, Well, a spoiled brat is. Somebody who would expect to feel good every time they do the same thing, right? So let's let's talk about a cupcake. Does a. Cupcake. Cupcake taste good? Yeah, it does. If you eat one every day, does it taste good? Maybe not. If you eat 5A day every day, does it taste good? Maybe not. So I said I want. You the next time you take kratom, I want you to think about how you feel and how it makes you feel and appreciate that moment. And also say that I'm not a spoiled brat and I'm not necessarily entitled. To this good. Recreational buzz that I'm getting right now every. Day OK, I don't get what I want.

26:32 In life, every single day I work for it. Sometimes that means I I hit and sometimes that means that I miss. So I guess the best way that I've described it is this. Talk to yourself. Ask yourself, are you? Letting this substance or any substance take control of your life. OK. Who's in? Who's in the driver's seat? And ask yourself this question. Am I so spoiled? That. Every time I take my 4 ounce of kratom tea every day that I have to feel the same way every day because not a single thing on this planet. Operates like that. Not a single thing, not a television show, not a not a movie that you watch, not a conversation with your best friend. OK, you are meant to have points where things feel good and they don't feel good.

27:19 I'm not saying kratom should feel bad, but what I'm saying is don't be a spoiled brat and expect that kratom is going to feel just as great today as it will tomorrow and the next day unless you're willing to implement some tolerance breaks. Taper. Off your consumption and play with those levels. If you. Start on Monday with one capsule and by Friday you end at 5:00. Saturday, take three Sunday. Take two and Monday take one. These are just example numbers. Play with your tolerance. Ask. Yourself, how you're doing. Check in with yourself and don't have a sense of entitlement about it and I think my friend appreciated putting it into that perspective because he never really thought about especially in consideration of alcohol, he. Was.

28:00 Chasing the dragon. This. Alcohol makes me feel great. I deserve to feel great like this every day. No one deserves to feel on top of the world every single day. Good only feels good because of a little bit of bad, and bad only feels good because bad only feels bad because of good. You need the contrast. So stop expecting. Plants. Or areas. Of entertainment or your partner to solve all of your problems and be perfect every single day because you're setting yourself up for disaster tolerance breaks people in cannabis talk about. This all the time. You know, take a tolerance break and come back to it at a lower level and you'll appreciate it more.

28:42 I love that. Well said. Wow, that was really good. I had a feeling you'd have a good answer for that question. So now let's talk about how you got into the kratom industry. You, you are a kratom company, a vendor. So how did that all get started? Yeah, so I. You know I. I. Worked my way through college. I graduated college late I but I graduated debt free. I was very proud of that. I could not get a job. I ended up getting an unpaid internship while working at Red Lobster. Working 70 hours a week at that .30 hours were free, unpaid. 40. Hours were at the restaurant to pay my bills and that first job in the tobacco industry became my first career. I I worked my way from the bottom to the top, unpaid intern to the VP of Sales.

29:31 It was quite a large company. And I was very proud of that. But I was hitting my head on the ceiling of experience and pay. I just turned 30 and I realized that if I stayed another five years. I wasn't. Going to make much more. I wasn't going to learn much more. So I took a risk and I left and I went into logistics and I made the best money of my life as a freight broker. I want to make it very clear that I'm not personally passionate about tobacco or logistics. I believe that we just. Like the analogy with kratom? OK, we lie to ourselves and we say that we deserve or. We are entitled to feeling good everyday. Which?

30:11 Isn't. Fair because it sets us up for disappointment. We do. The same thing when we think about our careers, we think that somehow we deserve to do something we're passionate about, and that just makes life easy. Because. Every once in a while, you'll hear an actor or a famous business person talk. About how they just followed their passion. And that made them happy. Well, that's that's too nicely summed up, and it's not often accurate. So while working in. Logistics making the best money in my life I was so. Proud of what I did. I bumped. Into somebody at a cava. Bar that was a business. Owner and he mentioned that he owned a kratom company and needed somebody to fill some big shoes. And I was very dismissive.

30:53 I was like no, I'm good, I'm making really good money, yadda yadda, yadda. But I considered the lifestyle that I had. I was working seven days a week. I was burning myself out. I was getting woken up at 3 O clock in the morning, you know, most nights of the week. Very stressful, demanding. Job. And I asked myself this question. I said, man, when you were in the tobacco business, grinding, traveling three weeks out of the month and somebody came along and said, hey, I need you. I need your skill set for kratom cava business. Would. You have jumped ship and I said I wouldn't bat an eye. I wouldn't have bat an eye. I would have hopped. Out of the tobacco. Industry in an instant to do what I'm doing now and I think that helped me come to the realization that like yo, I can make this change and and while I just said that passion doesn't necessarily mean everything is easy. I now get to sell products that I'm passionate about work in an industry that I'm passionate about and do the things that I'm passionate about, which is personnel development, team development, making people better versions of themselves. So even though I wasn't passionate about logistics. Or tobacco I was.

32:05 Passionate about doing something well, getting it done well. And I found that passion and that motivated me and propelled me forward. And now working in the industry for the last almost three years, I'm doing the same thing, except that I deeply care about what we sell. I deeply care about the customers when they choose to buy our products because as you mentioned before. People. Are stigmatized by picking these products you know if you tell your aunt that you decided to start taking kratom and she saw a news story that wasn't the one you were interviewed on she thinks you're taking gas station heroin. So you're, you're putting your, you're putting your livelihood at risk. Sometimes in a professional setting, people will judge. You for that as well. You're challenging.

32:47 Your personal relationships by saying I take kratom and so that's. Part. Of the reason why I'm so fired up about doing this the right way, building up an empire, helping our customers grow, and making sure that we're ethical about it. Because I don't. Want to ever get a notice in the mail that somebody's life was damaged by my products? You know, I really don't. I I dread that. Yeah. I want people to buy my stuff. That's great. Buy all my kratom. But. Not at the expense of your livelihood. And I know that some recreational or non recreational users go overboard with kratom which is why. I try to be explicit and tell. People. It is habit for me. You know, tread lightly, don't let something control your life, even if that hurts my sales at the end of the day.

33:33 So hopefully that answers. Your question I have a tendency to ramble a little bit. So no, it was. Perfect. It was perfect. And I, I, I love this because you, you're at a KRAM company that are doing things right, that really care about the customers and not just in it for the bucks. It seems like there's too many in the industry that just only care about money and not the people. And to say like, I, I don't want anybody to be harmed. I want, you know, people to know about this product. And it's amazing because not too many kratom companies will, will be so forthcoming with information like that that benefits the consumers. And I, I love how you're a big advocate in this community. I mean, I, I, before you reached out to me, I was already seeing your videos on YouTube and I remember going, well, this guy is great because he's just like putting out knowledge bombs about Kratom because you know, there, there are people that do that, like myself and some others that are kratom consumers that are trying to help educate people. We don't see too many kratom because there's, there's a handful that are doing like what you're doing, trying to trying to just help educate people and, and share factual information. And I I love that you do do that. So can you tell us a little bit about like how, what motivated you to start this YouTube channel And and you're like putting videos out like every day, right? Yeah.

34:56 Yeah, absolutely. Every week we film a video. It's funny my my graphic designer. He did a a video. Titled when your Gen. Z employee edits your videos and it's just me doing. All the little cut outs of the videos. You know, where I'm breathing heavy or something and it's hilarious, but honestly, there's no teleprompter. I might write down a couple of notes. I might be responding to somebody's comment or question or something that we spitballed in the office. Why? Did we decide to do this because it does expose us to risk? Number one, I feel like I hedge my bets. When I go onto a video and I tell people about kratom, I like to say something like, hey, I'm not a doctor. I sell these products for a living. Take.

35:39 What I say with a grain of salt, consult with a doctor and for the love of God if you're on 15 medications. Don't. Just go throw and krate them in there because I don't know how they interact with each other. Ask your doctor, but there is very little representation. From the company side of things and it's so easy for regulators to say, well. Since. They don't speak up and they don't offer any suggestions to their consumers, even though it's in response to the regulations that exist or the lack of approval from the FDA. It's so easy for regulators to say there's no representation. These kratom companies are all evil, all they. Care about is money. All they care about is hooking and, you know, hooking their people on their products and that's extremely harmful, so. If we are the.

36:22 One that is the only one putting ourselves out there and saying hey here's some info. We're here. To answer your questions, we're here to interact with you positively. We're trying to do the right thing. We appreciate your support. Then yeah, it it helps bolster. Us it helps us to be a voice within the. Community and my goal with the channel is to get enough viewership. Out there that if the Florida. State decides they want to pass some cruddy bill that my voice can be heard and people in the community can can respond. So it is a risk. It's. Something I enjoy. I I admire you because at some point I would like to start. A podcast, but. Not related to kratom, more towards like mental mental well-being and trying to see the positive side of things even when you're going through something negative. So it puts me out there and I'm cultivating some skills. By.

37:13 Doing it, and so far most of the comments have been positive. You know, we've gotten some really cool feedback. So far it's not. Really impacting our business one way or the other. We don't get enough views but. It's out there. We're doing our best and hopefully that will open some doors for us in business in the future. I think it will, you know it many times with with social media like that, it, it can take a while for people to discover. I mean, I've had my YouTube channel, my crane stories podcast, YouTube channel for about a year and a half I think now and it's it's just slow going. But the beauty with with YouTube is a search engine. And I think a lot of people don't realize that like Google's number one search engine, Google owns YouTube, so it's the number 2 search engine.

37:58 And what's great with you creating video content about kratom, I'm doing that all the time as well, is that people could find one of your videos five years from now and it could help change their life. And I love TikTok because TikTok has been great for us connecting with fellow kratom consumers and advocates and just helping to educate people about kratom. But those videos are so in the moment. So they do great short term, but but there's just no long term with it. You know, I if I have a really helpful video I made like a year ago, you'd have to scroll so far, you'll never find it. But with YouTube, you know you'll easily see hold. Can pop to the top, yeah.

38:40 Exactly. So I've been actually taking some of my TikTok videos and putting them over on my YouTube shorts and it's really getting a lot of attention by doing that. I've been watching the analytics on that and it's like, wow, this is bringing more people to my YouTube channel. And I think more people are learning about kratom through this. But it's a process because you know when it, I mean, this is my almost 30 years of digital marketing experience coming out. But I love that you're just doing the videos and you're doing them consistently because that's the most important thing. But it takes time for people to keep seeing that in their feed and get to know like and trust you. And so over time, it will help your business and you'll see an impact of like, because people are getting to know you, the person who sells kratom, and you don't see that a lot. You don't see very many vendors.

39:35 I know there's a lot of rules and what you can and can't say, but you can still make videos and and be the main person. So people do get to know, like and trust you and just help educate. And I think you're doing a great job. I don't see too many companies doing that the way you are. And how? How long have you been doing that now? Not not much longer than 3035 days maybe. I mean, we've, we've. Scheduled stuff out to the middle. Of. Of April. So yeah, the consistency is from what I've learned, consistency is key. Responding to comments is key when you're starting a channel. So we're we're going to keep doing this and I think one of my goals is to find all of the most popular kratom related content and respond to it. Because if you're.

40:25 Your name is Dave and you live in Kentucky and you've heard of kratom and you don't know where to start and every. YouTube search shows up with. Kratom ruined my life. Day 30 of kratom Kratom withdrawal. You know videos talking about how harmful it is. There. Is no alternative to that. And then on the flip side, if you use. Google. And you look up what is kratom, you're either going to get a terrible. Posting. From Mayo Clinic, which is horribly uninformed, or some company shamelessly trying to sell their products. Facebook and Instagram don't let us talk about kratom or cava for that matter and sponsor any ads.

41:05 Our stuff gets suspended and taken down. YouTube has been at least a good. Outlet for us to speak our. Minds And also it's kind of nice because I'm not actually asking anybody to buy anything, OK. I literally if somebody's got a bag of remarkable. Herbs in front of them and they're trying to figure out how to dose and they see my dosing video and it helps them. Cool, Awesome. Like you said, with time and familiarity, maybe that creates some customer conversions, but I'm trying to help bring the industry, even if it is individually, I'm trying to help bring the industry out of the. Shroud of the Shadows, where it's been. For a long time there's You've heard of Opms, right?

41:46 Yeah, I mean. Their name is meant to sound like opium. They're one of the first founding forefathers. Of kratom within the CPG industry. By making products that were way too strong and shrouding their whole business and mystery. You don't know where their office is. You don't know who their people. Are there's a? There's a separate. You know, company that pushes all the products, but that's owned by a parent company, so it's. It's. Kind of difficult to, you know, look them in the eyes, so to speak. But I understand why too, because they're making a lot of money. They're making a lot of money with a product that's not well accepted by the. Rest. Of the community and they are offering a product that does help people regardless of whether or not their products are strong. So why would they want to be forthcoming and tell regulators? Where they're at?

42:38 I don't blame them, but you know, sharing the space with a number of other companies to helping. Helping. To add some legitimacy to the whole industry is important. If they get to see my face and if they're on the cusp of trying the bag that's in front of them for the first time and I make them feel a little bit more comfortable and it changes their life for the better, then I've done a good deed, you know, very. Important that these videos are cautionary but upbeat so that people do the. Right thing, deal with it responsibly, you know, and it does have a positive impact rather than a -1 It's going to be unavoidable. Somebody is going to take too much, somebody is going to lack self-control. As they do with Frito Lays and cigarettes and alcohol, somebody is always going to abuse whatever is in front of them. Yeah, absolutely.

43:30 I just love that that you're educating people and that's your primary goal. And I think that, you know, we need more of that. So yeah, just keep doing what you're doing because it's definitely, you know, because I I usually check YouTube for just kratom related videos very regularly and your stuff just keeps popping up in the feed. So if people are searching for Kratom like they're going to see you and yeah, I think it's super smart of you now. I love that you're just so big with advocacy and help sharing positive information about kratom. And I know you're in Florida, lot happening there in the moment. But you know, so many times people will say because, you know, like you wouldn't spoke at your state capitol in Florida. And you know, so many people want to get more involved in advocacy that are kratom consumers, but they don't know what to do and they're always asking, what do I do? How do I do it?

44:20 Whereas you're just doing it. So what kind of advice would you give to people of how to get more involved as a kratom consumer to help keep kratom legal, Especially when these bands keep popping up and they're constantly popping up? Right. So, OK, great question number. One, they don't make it easy. OK, it's. Yes, it's simple enough to say yes, I'm just getting out there and doing it, but my God, you want to try and sign up to visit the state? Capital, they don't. Make it easy. Their website has a million buttons. We don't go to school for this. They don't let us know how our political system works, and when they do, we don't pay attention. So the. Biggest. Thing that you can do if you use kratom. OK, is.

45:00 To be an upstanding member of society, contribute and make sure that you let people know that you take kratom and it's a part of a. Healthy, happy, productive lifestyle. That's the biggest. Point of advocacy that you can do, if you're watching this right now and you're a police officer, a firefighter, an EMT, and you take kratom, your voice will matter unequivocally more than my voice or Madeleine's voice or anyone else's voice because your badge, your state of authority. Is. Extremely important and eye opening for people. Who? Have never heard of it and assume that it's gas station heroin if you are a. Doctor, a lawyer or a local politician. You as well have a magnified voice. Because I work in the.

45:40 Industry. My voice is this big, I can do what I want to try and broadcast it, but. Those with a rational. Mind will say, well, he sells it for a living. Of course anything he says is biased, whether or not it is. So yeah, listen, if you know somebody who's involved and fighting with these advocacy groups. Ask. Them how they're doing it. We've talked about the American Credit Association. They're not perfect, but they're doing a hell of a job protecting kratom. OK, You can find their website with a quick Google search. You can sign up for the newsletters. You can respond to their emails. They provide you links that you can write emails to the politicians who propose bills.

46:20 If you're in the business like we are, sign up for your local Chamber of Commerce. It's what I did immediately after leaving the state capital. I'm involving myself with the local Chamber of Commerce. I'm going to be doing sponsorships for local events. I'm going to be doing meetings with our local politicians because they need to know we matter, OK? That's. What I'm trying to do on my end from from a consumer perspective show up. OK. 5000 people in the Tampa Bay Times produced their article about kratom being bad. 5000 people signed the petition to help them take it down and that they were going to show up at the Tampa Bay Times, myself and maybe 15 other people. Showed up.

47:01 OK. Those articles are harmful and. You know, if you're really passionate about this, you want to keep it around, I wouldn't stop you from being petty A. Newspaper puts a crappy article out there. Go leave a. Go leave a comment on there about how poor the journalism was. OK one thing that I can tell you about any article talking about a kratom related death. If they say. Kratom killed that young man, 33 years old, and they don't say that the toxicology report came back clean with no other intoxicants in their system, which they never do. Then they probably had other intoxicants in their system. And this is just a great way for that journalistic entity to gain clicks. Bad news travels faster than good news. They're not going to get anybody to look on their website if it says kratom is a great plant and it's helping save people's lives, right?

47:52 So. Get. Involved. Get pissed. Off write. Those emails to your politicians show up at town hall. We need people who can combat the negative voices. That are out there. And contribute. To society positively spread the word if. Kratom changed your life for the better. Go tell people about it and let. Them know how it changed your life for the better. And maybe they get on board too, you know? I love this all that was so well said. And that's what I started doing. You know, I, I, when I started kratom six years ago as a consumer, I wasn't very comfortable talking about it with other people because it just seems so stigmatized, just like when I was in pain management for nine years taking high-powered opioids.

48:33 I didn't go around telling people, you know, oh, by the way, let me hold on. I gotta go pop this Oxycontin pill so I don't suffer in pain. It's just people have this thought of what they hear that word Oxycontin, and they like they already think the worst of that because of the history of it and what the media has shown us. But it was actually one of the best medications I ever had during my chronic pain time in pain management Kratom. So I'm not going to ever knock it or, or be negative about it, but I was never comfortable talking about it. So when I switched to kratom those first few years, I, I didn't even mention it to doctors at first, But every time I got more comfortable and wanted to be more of an advocate. And I just, I just started telling anybody and everybody. And it's, it's interesting because of course some people are just always going to be negative because all they hear is negative stuff, especially in the media and that Tampa Bay Times.

49:29 Oh, that was a terrible reporting. Terrible reporting. We've talked about it plenty on our kratom gals live streams. We've had plenty of them talking. Oh yeah, because it was just so poorly. Poor journalism for sure. But they just dispute everything dramatically. The AKA said said to us that apparently. There was a law firm that sponsored that article and I think it might be a law firm that goes after the the kratom related deaths they. Do and. You know one thing I wanted to say this. So badly at the state Capitol. To one of the ladies who'd. Lost her son. And and not to make light of it, but whose son or daughter calls their mom and says, hey, I'm a heroin addict, OK, not many. Usually that parent, if they're highly involved in their parent in their child's life, will find out as a consequence of bad behavior.

50:23 Getting into trouble. But some kids are really, really good at hiding drug use from their parents. So then when kratom comes around and they decide they want to get sober, they are buying a legal product. Which? They don't have a problem showing to their parents, so when their parents says hey, what's that? Little bottle on your. Desk Oh that's kratom. It's really good. It helps me with my anxiety. What it's? Really helping them do is get over their. Their. Heroin withdrawal or their fentanyl withdrawal, right? And so when they go back to their dealer and they purchased their normal hit from their dealer. Because. Their tolerance has been decreased. It's a lethal. Dose and then they drop dead and the only new variable in the parent's life to their knowledge is kratom. OK, so their son who they might not have been a part of. Their life very close to them.

51:11 Comes back into their life with kratom. Kratom's the new variable. The sun can't stay strong, breaks down, buys their normal hit, overdoses and dies. The parent says it must have been the kratom. And of course, if they find kratom in that person's system, well, you know, cause and effect. And it's really, really unfortunate, you know? I've. Known too many people in my life that have died from drugs, prescription or alcohol and I don't know anybody that's died from kratom and I know a lot of people who take. Kratom. You know, Yeah, Well, responsible use of kratom is not harmful. And I been in the same room with some of the leading kratom experts talking about their findings, which is is is not something that you die from by just consuming it by itself. Like, you know, if somebody has kratom in their system, they most likely had so many other drugs in their system, usually narcotics that that are harmful.

52:15 But it's just it's one of the reasons why I advocate so hard. And it sounds like same with you. It's like we're just trying to make sure people are educated and understand and get all the facts. Like the news story, I was on my NBC News story when they they showed the grieving mom and talked about how her son died. You know, they mentioned that he had some doctor prescribed medications in the system, but they didn't show the tox report that showed the tons of different medications were in the system and some of them will illicit. So it's in medical issues as well. So right, we're just trying to always help paint a fuller picture of the truth and and educate people.

52:57 And I think that's just so important. We need we need more of that. So I just love that you're you're big on doing this as well in the industry. Thank you. Yeah. I mean. It's it sucks. Loss of life is, is huge, right? It's hard to make. An argument in the face of someone who just lost a loved one in Florida. There was a lady who passed. Away over on the East Coast of Florida. Apparently she took some kratom and I think two weeks after she passed there was another woman who passed away in the East Coast of Florida. She went to Florida on vacation with her family, went to the beach, was out in the sun and chugged 2 bottles of water in rapid succession and passed away. So. If water can kill you, where are the advocacy groups asking for regulation that puts a warning label on a bottle of water saying don't drink more than two of these in an X number of window of time? It all comes down to this litigious society that we live in that people are so quick to try and monetize tragedy and sue.

53:58 Some industries are too large to come down from lawsuits and other industries like ours are a lot more vulnerable. So one thing that you know, when I talked to you earlier, I mentioned I'm happy to share the. Space with other. People in the industry who do the right thing. There's some competitors out there that are wonderful, marvelous. Their team is excellent. They do good things in the industry. I would love to be able to kick out. All The Dirty players that are in the industry, you know, and it's it's hard to do the at the end of the day, there's different mechanics in the business that people are interested in certain attributes when it comes to kratom. They want cheap, they want to make a lot of money. They don't care if it's good. They don't take it themselves. And so with that in mind, you see a. Whole slew of.

54:42 Substandard kratom products making it into the market and in front of consumers who don't know any better. You know, maybe money is tight, maybe it is important to have a value brand out there for kratom. Somebody can buy something for $2.00 instead of 12. But. I would argue that, you know, kratom is supposed to cost money. And you're supposed to have to pay a reasonable price for a reasonable product. It's not meant to be dirt cheap. And if it is dirt cheap? You should be a little bit worried about the quality of it and the. Team behind the product there's people who work in the industry who don't take kratom and don't care about whether or not they help people. They just want to make money all. Of and I'm.

55:24 Not here to brag, but with these new tariffs and stuff, we might have to reconsider some of our vendors. But as of right now, all of our machinery and all of our packaging is made in the US, you know, but we're seeing cost increases that are even transcending just what happens when you import products into the United States. The companies, even the companies we work with that are US based, they've got increased costs on their raw materials, so. But we could. Have gone the route of any other competitor and gotten Chinese packaging from the start and Chinese material and maybe employed people at our warehouse that were undocumented laborers but proudly we are more US based than just about any other company you purchase from except for the kratom comes from Indonesia. You know, that's kind of unavoidable as of right now, so would be nice if we.

56:13 Could get a couple 1000. Acres of land in Florida and find a way to grow it. Here, that'd be great, but. We're we're nowhere near being able to do that, you know? Yeah, it'd be nice when there when there's that ability to do it. Abram, this been such a great conversation. I'll definitely have to bring you on for another discussion sometime soon because I just feel like there's just so much more we can talk about. But let's wrap up with with this. So knowing everything you know now about kratom and you know, a lot, you you, you know, got turned on to it 10 years ago. You've been in the industry working in IT for the last three years. What advice would you give to someone to help them get started in their kratom journey?

56:55 Great. Go slow. Do not. Rush into it, OK? Don't be impatient. Don't expect that the first time you try kratom, you're going to get this magical experience. Be prepared to. Start slow over the course of several days. OK, start. With the raw plant matter capsules or powder, OK and start with a very low dose and see how you feel and really ask yourself if you can tap into that and figure. Out how this is making you feel. I think it'll be a much better way for somebody to start than to jumping in with both feet. There's a lot of people who bring their ego to the table when trying a product for the first time. Could be liquor, could be whatever. And they're like, oh, I'm, I'm a big strong man.

57:37 I could take. I could take a ton of. This and not even feel it. Don't do that. All right. If you want to get started. Do your research. Online. Talk to some people you might know. Go to a local Kava bar if there is one. Ask some questions. Ask. Yourself what you want. Kratom to do for you. OK. And then start slow. Yeah, Well said. This has been great. Abram, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. Thank you. So much it was. It was awesome. I appreciate you.