Ep 69: From Meth to Freedom: How Bunny Used Kratom to Reclaim Her Life

0:00 We should be able to talk about our issues freely because it helps others along their path with the same issues. And when it's it's not, you know, it doesn't like create a bond between you because Oh well, we have the same problem. No, it you're a lighthouse, you become a lighthouse at that point when you can overcome something like that, you should be talking about it. You should be sharing your experiences and with kratom. I love talking about that experience because every time meth comes up in my slab city talks in my Patreon in anything, I always wrap it up with, if you are struggling with this, please reach out because there are things that can help you that I can't talk about freely on this app. And sometimes I'll spell it out KRATOM or I'll say it rhymes with Schmadam and starts with AK. You know you have to use the code words on TikTok, but I absolutely advocate for it even though I'm not using it anymore. So I'm here with Bunny, somebody I've met online. She's got a very cool thing going called Budget Van Life. It's just a lot of coolness coming from this lady. Looking forward to hearing more.

1:11 Thank you for first of all, thank you for reaching out to me and for coming on the podcast because your story, the little bit you've told me, Bunny sounds amazing. I can't wait. Well. Thanks for having me, I'm excited to be here. Absolutely. So why don't you start off telling us a little bit about yourself and life before kratom? Well, I, I've had a lot of trauma just just to keep it simple and basic. There was a lot of childhood stuff. And then as I grew up, I just kind of ran into it again and again and probably made some bad decisions in my life. And because of that, you know, drugs became a, a very easy thing to, to come across and like to get into. But I, I was always afraid of them. So I never really wanted to.

1:56 I just, I just kind of went along with my friends because it it was something where I was trying to get accepted, I suppose. I didn't really have a lot of pain or anything like that. I was just kind of a free spirit most of the time. I, I have a college education, I have a son. I never was married. And that's pretty much where my life went before Kratom. I started van life and that's when actually the, the worst drugs probably entered my life. And I think it, I was like 4 or five years into van life and I, I wasn't in a van. I was in a car and I was hitchhiking. If I wasn't in a car, I was hitchhiking. And sometimes you just get the wrong ride.

2:39 And I got the wrong ride. And that's that's how it started. I was stuck in this like tiny little truck cab with two other people who I had waited three days trying to hitchhike out of this place in Southern California. And when they picked me up, they turned back to me and they said, do you party? If anyone ever asked you that, don't. Don't say yes. I was very naive and I didn't know what that meant. And I thought it was like, you know, listen to music and maybe drink some, kick back some alcohol. OK cool, maybe even smoke some weed fine but I don't know what I can say on here so. Say whatever, say whatever. You like So at that point I tried it and it was math and I, I didn't realize what it was I had, I had smoked it wrong. I spilled it.

3:22 They were very upset with me. I was scared. And so I sat with these people in this truck in this ride for about two hours while they got high and it got me high and it was totally against my will. When I realized what it was, I kind of freaked out. I was up for three days. I called everyone in my phone book and played every song in my ukulele book. Look what I can do. Oh my God. And I felt like superwoman and I didn't couldn't sleep. It wasn't really a comfortable feeling for me. But then later on, I was in Slab City and it was fed to me against my will again. And I knew what the taste of it from being around it and putting my lips on that, the way they did it in the in the truck.

4:03 So that's where it came to me. And I tasted it again to my food at a free feed in Slab City and was like, I know what's going to happen now. I know, I know how bad this is. And again, I was out for a few days. But in Slab City it's very affordable because you know, they make it right there and it's it's you can get it free. I mean, it was fed to me for goodness sake. So at that point I had already had a taste and I knew what, what my what it would do to me and it was over it it was signed, sealed delivery. It was over. So I got my hands on it again, seeking it out this time and that it was it third time's the charm, right? So I was on it for I'm just going to go into the whole story. I hope that's OK.

4:46 I was on it for about 3 years. I would leave Slab City and like keep a very little, you know, small amount of stash on me and travel with it, even in my vehicles. I was always very regulated and careful with it. I never put it in my veins. I never but I knew I was addicted. And after three years, I realized I was in Slab City. I realized there was a point where I looked around and I was like this, this is my life now and it's probably going to be like this for the rest of my life because I can't get off this stuff. It's I can't, the amount of pain that it caused me to get off of it was immeasurable. So much pain, so, so much pain. Everything ached, everything hurt. Walking was like crippling. And so it was, it was just a keep yourself healthy kind of thing.

5:32 It wasn't even like a high anymore. And you know, the things that they put in meth are .3 brake fluid and all kinds of horrible, horrible chemicals that should never, ever be in your body. And it would come out of me in weird places. I would get boils and like, crystals would come out of it was insane. I had Morgellons. I was delusional. I thought I could talk to the elk. True story. Yeah, it it was pretty insane. And I realized like, this is my life now. But there was still like some grain of sanity in there because at one point I brought myself to an ER because of the Morgellons.

6:13 Morgellons. If you don't know what that is, it's like a, a feeling of bugs all over you, but it's, it's all hallucinating. So I went to the ER and I thought I was like infested. And I had tried diatomaceous earth. I had tried a bug bomb in my vehicle. I thought it was fleas. I didn't know what it was. And when I showed up, you know, they kind of, you could tell they were kind of laughing under their breath. They were like, yeah, OK, she's, she's on something. But I told them I needed to be quarantined. I'm covered in diatomaceous earth and I, I look foolish, I'm sure. And they were just like, we know what this is. So they kept me in a room for about four hours. And they asked, you know, they did a whole search on my head for bugs and everything. And then they said to me, like, after four hours, we didn't find any bugs.

6:58 Like, how do you feel now? And I'm like, actually, I feel OK. And they're like, OK, so what's your drug use like? And I was like, I never shoot up. I never shoot up. And they were like, OK, so it seems like you have a good head on your shoulders. And if they had never said that to me, it would have never planted the seed. But they were like, at some point you're going to have to make a decision because this drug is taking you down a road that's that's probably going to be too far for you. And I was just like, wait, you think I still have a chance? And they were like, yes, you, you have a good head on your shoulders. Like you, you're not an unintelligent person. Like you can do this if you want to. If it's not the right time, it's not the right time. But when you're ready, you should, you should think about it. And I was like, you know, it was like mind blowing to me at that point. I was like, oh, so I started, you know, the universe kind of puts things in your lap at that point when you're open to it. And a friend had said, you know, if you ever want to quit, you can try kratom.

7:51 Kratom really helps people. And I was like, what's this? What is this? So I did a little bit of research and I found out about the different colors and veins and, and how they interact with your body and like what's good for what. And I said, OK, I'm going to go get some. I'm going to try a little bit of each. And I weaned off of my meth stash very slowly because I knew that I was going to use kratom as a tool. I also knew it was addictive to some people, that people were using it as a drug too. So I was like, all right, I want to get off of this. I'm not going to trade it in for something else. I'm going to use this as a tool. And it wasn't long after that, that hospital visit that I decided I was going to, you know, I ran out of my stash. Then I went into the store.

8:38 This, it was literally the same day I ran out of my stash. I'm driving and this huge flag says kratom. And it's like, oh. So of course I turned in and I asked the woman about it. And she was like, you know, this is she told me a little bit more about it and I tried a little bit of each and the white was very much like meth. It was very much like that. It had me, you know, it fixed my ADD. It had me hyper focused, but it also gave me a little bit of like I was temperamental, very irritable and almost ragey, which is very similar to what meth does to you. But I was non-stop and awake. It didn't really do much for pain. So when I tried the red that made me sleep, it did everything for the pain, but it made me sleep and I was like, no, I still have to function like I need to live.

9:27 And so the green was what really worked for me. It was, it was the the Goldilocks. It took the pain away and it it gave me enough focus to get through. And so I just started taking 11 dose in the morning. That was a pretty decent dose. I took it with like a smoothie and orange juice and then halfway through the day I would take another dose and so I did that for about 6 months. Wow, was this the powder or extracts? It was the powder. I stuck with just the TV. I think that's all that was available then. Like I didn't even know the extracts existed anymore right at that point. I didn't even know they existed now until a couple weeks ago.

10:08 So. Yeah, extracts are, well, it seems like powder and extracts are really popular in smoke shops. And now 708 is cropping up everywhere, right? And they're all different. But that is so interesting to hear that you were able to get off of meth with with kratom powder. Usually when I hear people talk about using kratom as a tool to get off of drugs, it is almost always extracts at people And and you got to be careful with extracts because they're so strong. And then many times people go too far with that and and have issues because they're still having that same, you know, thing We're like overuse, take too much, you know, I feel good, but powder we don't, you know, that's not abused as much, right, Because how much powder can you try to down, you know, before getting sick?

11:04 I mean, when I first bought stuff, I, you know, my, my question to the woman at the cashier was like, what do you take as a dose? Like, have you tried this stuff? And she was like, oh, yeah, I tried it. And I was like, well, what, what was it like for you? And she was like, well, I was up for days and I was like, oh, OK, well that sounds just like what I need, but how about pain? So she, you know, I already knew a little bit about each of the colors, and she said, why don't you try a little bit of each, but just a little bit. And I think also hearing her overwhelm with it was enough to like, I've always been, you know, somebody was a little bit afraid of drugs. So even though this was a plant substance, I was like still wanting to be careful. And hearing her say her overwhelm with it definitely put me on a path of like, OK, this needs to be something I'm careful with.

11:52 But I had not heard of the extracts at that point. And powder was all you could get that was available. But she had also mentioned that some people, you know, take too much and like, they, they can't handle it and they freak out. And I was like that. That's not what I want to do. Well, it's interesting that like, you tried the white, you tried the red, you tried the green, which is what I did to figure out what worked best. And very quickly, the white made me too jittery. I didn't like how it made me feel. And a lot of people will say that too. And then the red. Red did nothing for me, didn't even make me sleepy. People say, oh, it helps with pain, relaxation. It did absolutely nothing for me, but the greens worked great. So I've been consuming green powder whole leaf kratom every day for. I just had my six year anniversary several weeks ago and it's it's been amazing for my chronic pain works way better than all the pain meds.

12:43 It's it's so amazing that a plant can help with something like this, but then also with your story and how this powder has helped you. That's just amazing. Let me ask you a question because many times people like over on TikTok social media, the one of the biggest struggles I see people talk about is trying to get off a Suboxone. I don't really see meth as much. I'll see them talk about Suboxone and how to transition. I imagine it's probably similar with what you went through. Like did you have to like taper completely to get to the point where you like stop completely and then did kratom or were you kind of do like how it? At the same time, I definitely knew what I wanted to do and I definitely took my time. I had a stash.

13:27 I left Slab City. There was some trauma and Slab City I was essayed and that was like also the other thing that was like, OK, it's time to go. This needs to stop. Like my life has to change. But I still had a stash when I left and it lasted me quite a while because I used so little and it was so cheap that you could have an amount that whatever it, it was just very easy to keep it for a long time because I didn't use like crazy. But I was definitely addicted and I knew that I I wanted to stop. So I figured I would wait until my stash ran out and then deal with the kratom. Then I didn't want to mix the two. I that freak.

14:07 I've seen things at festivals when people mix things. No, thank you. I think the fear was really kept what kept me safe, But then the knowledge of wisdom and of of kratom and learning about that and other people mentioning it to me was like, oh, this is something that can work. So I'm I'm very grateful for it. It saved my life. It absolutely saved my life. That's amazing. So when you know you discover kratom, you're using it. So like, was that it with a math? Like you never went back to it again, never look. How did that work? Never went back once I realized I had something else that could, I wanted to go back to my life before meth, like because meth had never been an intention for me. I I never wanted to do it.

14:50 It's just when I had when it was, you know, forced upon me, I was like, oh, wow, this is a mate, you know, and I don't, I don't want to like tout it to anyone. I don't want to like get anyone excited about using it. That's not why I'm here. But it's so addictive. It is so addictive. And when you try those kind of substances, you, you lose. How did I explain it to my son? He first started, you know, smoking weed. And I was like, hey, it's legal, OK? You could do what you want. I don't care. I don't even see that as a drug anymore. But just remember, when you start doing things on that substance, once you go back to doing that activity without that substance, it's not going to be the same.

15:35 So don't overdo it. And he was like, oh, oh, that makes sense. OK. And for me, it was the same thing with meth. Once I started doing activities like I can't play music without as much joy anymore because I used to play uke, I learned to play guitar while I was on meth and I was, I was a God. It was amazing. I was, I just knew what I was doing. It was amazing. But now that I don't have that substance, I can't play as well and I can't play for as long. So I lost that joy from it. And that's, that's a long term thing that that sticks around you. You have to take that as it comes. But I found joy in other things. But I wanted to go back to my life before math. I, there was joy in my life before math and I wanted to go back to that. So it, it was always about getting off of it completely. So I never went back.

16:23 Once I was off, I never went back. That's amazing. That's Congrats to you. That is so awesome to hear. I love hearing that. So when you were in this transition period, did did the Kratom just like make it so that like you just, I mean, were you craving? Like, I don't understand. I mean, yeah, I just come. I was in a lot. I was in depolation like like you have physical pain. Yeah. But what about like, the craving? Even weaning off of meth, like it just your body is so if you can't make the serotonin and the norepinephrine and the dopamine without a substance, your body is like, wait, I forget how to make this now. What miserable, miserable, absolute so much pain.

17:06 I mean, for six months on the kratom, I was still feeling pain. It was a whole year off of meth and on kratom that I was still feeling pain. It wasn't until like the second year that I was off of meth completely that I started to feel a little bit better without kratom. I, I took it for six months, those two doses a day and then I, I weaned down to 1 dose a day in the morning. Sometimes I would, I would sweat, I would do a couple doses if I needed it for something like if I knew it was going to be a rough day, if I had to work an extra shift, if I was doing something that was going to be labor intensive, then I would, I would definitely still take a second dose of kratom. But I gave myself a year.

17:48 I gave myself a year knowing that like if you can do this in a year, then you can be OK and it'll take you that long, but you can do this. So I had a plan. That is so great. I I just think that's just awesome to hear and I'm sure this is inspiring others that are listening to your journey with this. So tell us more about how this impacted your your daily life and overall well-being from this plant. Well, first, the getting off the math was just so painful that I I couldn't, I couldn't even drive. Like I couldn't walk. I'm a person who hikes pretty much every other day with my dog. I had a dog. I was, I, you know, I was trying to live my life. I was traveling, I was a nomad at this point and living out of my vehicles.

18:34 And that takes a definite certain level of you have to have some kind of like go get them in your life. If you're going to do van life or living out of a vehicle, There's just a, you can't just sit back and and forget everything that's going on around you. You have to make sure that you're aware. You have to make sure you have to find a place to sleep. Where are the resources? Where is the gas? Where are the cops? What are the rules? It's a, it's a constant awareness. And you know, I've been doing this for like 12 years now. So it's not that big of a deal now. But it's, it's a job. It's, it's, it's just part of life. It's like, just like how you pay rent, you've got to make sure you do this part of your life.

19:14 And it's not easy, but it was working for me and it still works for me. But without the math, I couldn't do any of it. I couldn't focus, I didn't have any energy. I was in so much pain. I was just like curled up in my vehicle, like it was so painful. And then when I started taking kratom, obviously it gave me this insane amount of relief and focus again and joy. I was able to like, Oh my gosh, this is a natural substance that I can use, that I can do this, I can do this. I can find my way back to myself. I can heal. I knew that it was going to be a long time getting this crap out of my body from meth because it builds up in there. I had no idea that these crystals would come out of my skin.

19:56 I had no idea that it would take as long as it did. I knew that it would take a while, but the boils that would pop up and crystals that came out of them, that is not delusional. That is a real thing. If you ask anyone else who's done meth for a long time, you'll find that that is something that literally happens when you detox. It's the scariest, craziest thing and the boils are painful. Everything is just so much pain. It's in, it's in your fibers, in your, in your muscles and in your fascia and in your bloodstream and it it takes a long time to come out. So kratom was just the only way that I could get through the day.

20:36 It was the only way I could get through the day while my body was detoxing off of this meth. Yeah, that's wow. You're great with storytelling, by the way. I, I love listening to this. You're painting a very vivid picture and I, I had no clue about, you know, some of those issues you run into with with math. So you're definitely educating me on this. Now being that you do the van live, I imagine that you just get kratom in smoke shops as you travel. Like how? How are you getting your kratom? Yeah, so there's obviously I, the last I checked, there were like 4 states where it's illegal. Maybe I'm wrong. You probably know better than me. It's 6 sometimes changes, but currently there's there's Wisconsin, Indiana, Arkansas, Alabama, Vermont and Rhode Island and we're very close to getting Arkansas overturned. That's been going on the last few weeks and all of that is just been from a misinformation and propaganda that got it banned in the 1st place is so insane when you go learn about the history of this.

21:44 We're very close to getting Arkansas, the KCPA, the Krame Consumer Protection Act, and to decriminalize kratom. They're working on other states. We're really close with Rhode Island. It passed the House and the Senate last year, but the governor vetoed it. So they're still trying to. They're still trying to work. Yeah. Like, it was so close to passing, like, to have the House and the Senate in Rhode Island ready to overturn it. But the the. Companies in his pockets or her pockets? Yeah, we all know that's, that's wow. We, we found out that was the case. But you know, the American Cram Association does a great job of of staying on top of all these legal issues and getting lobbyists in place and talking to these different legislators.

22:28 So, yeah, I mean, we're definitely seeing that tide turn more favorably. But yeah, sadly, there are a handful of states where it's banned. So I imagine when you're traveling, you're you're aware of like place it because not just this these states, they're actually municipalities, like in Illinois, they've gone crazy in that state. There's all these different communities, like suburbs around Chicago that just one by one, most of the time it's just banning the sale. Like you wouldn't be able to go to the smoke shop. Like it's not a possession thing. But some places like in like in Louisiana, there's all these parishes where they criminalize it. Oh, it's just. So when I I'm from Vermont and of course it was illegal there and when I was I was detoxing, I did go back home to my home state to visit some family and I, I came clean to them. I was like, This is why I use it. I have been using meth for through there. They were totally they had no idea. And they were like, well, good for you. Use what you got to eat.

23:26 Like I'm good, awesome. So I tried to get it sent to Vermont because I ordered it online because I couldn't find it anywhere. I was calling every smoke shop in Vermont. I was like, why don't they have it here? Maybe it's just a small state and they don't, you know, they just don't know. And then when I ordered it online, the company that I ordered it from actually called me and was like, you realize that we can't send it to you here, right? And I'm like, what do you mean it's illegal in Vermont? And I'm like, oh, I had no idea. So that's when I started like, learning that some of these states had laws against it, that some parishes had state laws against it and that like San Diego had criminalized it and all these other places. And I was like, OK, so I had planned anyway to go up to my friends in in Maine. And I said, can I just get it sent there? And they were like, yeah, we just we can't send it to you in Vermont.

24:13 I was like, OK, that's fine. So I did come across some barriers. Absolutely. But because again, because I was a nomad, I could take a 2 hour drive and go to a place where it was legal. And anybody can do that if they have access to a vehicle. Absolutely. But know that some people don't know that they think it's illegal in their state, must be illegal everywhere and that's not the case. You can get it sent to, you know, a general delivery if you need to outside of the state and just cross state lines. But just keep in mind that if you bring it back in that state and you try to, you know, disperse it to people with for money, if you try to sell it, it is you might get to charge.

24:54 So you have to be careful. But I did know about that after a little while of use. I think I was using it for like 3 or 4 months at that point. And so, you know, you live, you learn. And I figured it out and I realized I had to go pick some up in a different state. And then I realized then and there that I needed to have a lot on me that there that this was important to me that I needed to have just like meth, I needed to have a stash because I, I, this was a medicine for me. And if I didn't have it while I traveled, I was going to be, you know, in a big bad place up a Creek without a paddle. So I made sure that I had a supply. And because I was rationing it to myself, I, I, I kept my supply going, but I was always excited to try a new brand or a, you know, a new strain or something.

25:39 You know, you always come across the different shops and they have different brands and they have different, you know, different types of stuff you can try. And like, I would just get the little packets and try to see if it worked for me. And there is a big difference between the brands and how they, whatever they do to make their powders. I'm sure some of them have fillers in it now, I'm sure that they're not labeling it correctly. Some of it's not organic. So you have to be, do your research on the company that you decide to purchase from. And if you try something new, try a little bit first. Don't just like go all in with your regular dose because you don't know how it's going to be free. Yeah, exactly. You know, a lot of people like I've always bought my Kratom through reputable online vendors and it's always most of them have been really good quality. And yeah, they're not going to a reputable vendor is not going to ship to a state that bans it because they can get to a lot of trouble for doing that.

26:31 A lot of people have told me over the years that what, you know, they buy kratom at smoke shops and once they compare that to that, plus some of these reputable vendors, they order from online, like, you know, hearing about the ones I have. And I always have the links in the show notes if anybody wants to check it out. But you know, I do a lot of research on mine before I ever, you know, consume it first. And so I've been six years into my kratom journey. I have a variety of vendors I like to rotate because I think that's an important part of what works for me because I've never had a tolerance issue in these six years. And I really think it's because I've been rotating vendors from day one, but a lot of people will tell me that they'll try one of the vendors that I recommend and say, Oh my God, I've been doing this smoke shop kratom for a long time.

27:13 And it's not nearly like comparing. It's like, wow, this vendor you recommended was like way better quality. Not to say that all smoke shops are like that, but I think maybe some of those bigger ones that sell to like all smokes, like, you know, there's some brands that like you see in every smoke shop that I don't know if it's just more of a watered down, like maybe fillers, like you said, who knows? But it's just interesting when people talk about quality and you don't know till you try different ones. And I've tried a variety of brands over the years and yes, some are better than others. Some are like, whoa, this not nearly as good. But but when you're doing the van life, I imagine it's just so much easier to just pick it up when you're, you know, on the road and you see smoke shops and like you said, trying different brands, which I think is cool. And let me ask you this with these smoke shops, because so many times people will tell me smoke shops that people are just not knowledgeable about kratom.

28:10 Most times they just point to it. They don't know anything. Every once in a while I'll have somebody on the podcast that said my local smoke shop. They were so knowledgeable. They guided me, they helped me, they answered my questions. I don't hear that very often. Since you travel so much, what's been your experience with smoke shops? Are are very many of them knowledgeable or or no? I find out West a lot more people know about it. It's also used in the bodybuilding world so if you go to like a a supplement or vitamin shop sometimes they have a little bit more knowledge about it too. At the same in the same breath, I've gone through a supplement shop because they had a kratom sign out side went in and they had like they had two jars of it. They didn't even know about colors and I was like, what is that like?

28:54 And they're they were like going to scoop it into a bag for me and I was like, no, that that's OK, I'm I'll go somewhere else. So you have you know, you have to do it's definitely ADYOR thing. You want to be informed and if if you're someone who reacts really sensitively to stuff like I do, you want to try what you're doing first. So like don't go out and like try a new brand and get like a big dump truck full of it. Go out, get a get something you can afford, maybe a 10 or $15.00, you know, pouch or container of it and use it sparingly. Just give yourself a minute to get used to it. And if it doesn't work, try something else or try a bigger dose. And if it does, then you've got yourself something you can work with, right?

29:44 But yeah, not honestly. Excellent. That's excellent advice because, yeah, many times people learn about kratom, they buy large quantities without even trying it first to see if it works for them or or trying a new brand. Anytime I try a new brand for the first time, I always just buy the smallest size of what they have just to see if it's something I like that it doesn't help my pain. You know, I think that's that excellent advice you shared with that. So going back to when you're traveling and you were talking before about, you know, just buying it where it's legal and then going back across state lines, you know, being that I've been so immersed in the advocacy world and all this legal stuff for years now, there's actually been 2 cases. I know not everybody knows about this. That's why I want to bring it up. There's been 2 cases where people bought it legally at a smoke shop in a legal state, cross state lines to their illegal state and ended up in jail. And so there's, there's two of us want to make sure people are aware and let you know.

30:46 So not to say that that's not something like, you know, hey, if this works for you and being able to, I mean. Some states is illegal because I I I knew that in some states it was possession, in other states it's if you try to sell it. So these are possession. These are possession states. So Alabama and Arkansas. So very quickly to educate our listeners and to let you know, yeah, a couple of these states were as criminalized. You could go to jail. You go to prison for. For just. Having kratom like like that, it seems like in some places they were staking out smoke shops. The whole thing is just so crazy. So there was a case of Marshall Price. So he bought kratom legally, I think it was Missouri. He crossed state lines and into Arkansas and it is criminalized there and he was caught with like 200 grams. He had his car.

31:37 He was using it for his recovery. He had been off the drugs. He was doing great. He had like spent 20 years in addiction. Life by catching a charge. Oh my. God, they, they, they, he, you know, went to jail. He got a 10 year prison sentence on the trial. They weren't even allowed to. You know, they say schedule he had schedule one on him. Schedule 1200 grams, schedule one. Well, when you hear that you're on a jury, what do you think that is? Oh, it must have. Been or something? Or something. Or yeah, they they weren't allowed to tell them that it was kratom. That was tea leaves. So he gets 10 years. Three weeks into his sentence. He was killed in jail and under very unusual circumstances. So all of this because he had kratom in his car that helped him in his sobriety.

32:27 And so, you know, the advocates have been fighting so hard to get that overturned in Arkansas. As I was mentioning earlier, we're so close. And his daughter, Julian Price, who I got to meet in Washington, DCA few years ago, has become a big advocate in the kratom community because of what happened to her father. So yeah, a few weeks ago, a group of them were in Arkansas at the state capitol. And you know, we're baby steps, we're making progress. And it's great to help provide closure to her and her family because his death was several years ago and it's like he can't die in vain because of this ridiculous law over tea leaves, you know, And then there's Shana Brown. She bought kratom legally in Florida, cross an imaginary state line into Alabama, gets pulled over when she crosses imaginary state line. And they and she was using it for her sobriety too. Found it threw her in jail.

33:21 She was in jail for about, I want to say about nine months. I think it was eight or nine months. We've we heard about it. And we all collectively as kratom advocates started raising money to help bail her out. When she was arrested for having kratom on her in Alabama, they put her bond at $1 million. Oh my God. And it's like. Though at this point what states it just feels like it's a money maker. It's a money maker. It's a way for them to make money off of the people and and ruin people's lives. They don't care. They don't care about ruining people's lives. Even though that person was was probably coming off of a horrible drug and improving their life beyond any measure that this put her in jail could ever imagine. That's exactly what was happening. She had cleaned up her life.

34:07 She was doing so well. This happens, she's in jail, She has no idea. There's all of us kratom consumers and advocates that found out and we're collectively raising money for her. So over time, they reduced her bail slowly, but she was there for a long time. We finally raised enough. It was going to cost a fortune to get her a lawyer that could help her with this. We finally raised enough to hire an attorney, get her bailed out. I think by the time we got her bailed out all those months later, I think they had dropped her bail down to start in a million. Then I think maybe 250,000, I don't remember exactly. Then I think it got to 75,000, I think, I don't remember the details. It's been a while now. So we finally got her bailed out and it's still hanging over her. And this, this was like she got bailed out about a year and a half.

34:54 This whole thing happened like 2 years ago. I think it's two years this month in April when we're doing this interview. It's been a while, but this is still hanging over her. It's not resolved yet, but at least we got her out of jail and got her a good attorney. But things like this can't happen. Reading laws about this, it's not like we learn about kratom in public school, you know, it's just like the other drugs, like, yeah, we're taught about them DARE and the DARE program, you know, and all these things like don't use these drugs like these are horrible. You know, there's, there's media about it there, there's pamphlets about there's, you know, there's talk about it. But when it's something that's so shoved under the rug that people don't really understand and then to, you know, take someone's freedom away from it, that that's so wrong on so many levels.

35:39 I'm so sorry for her and her family. It's awful. And then we also heard of a story about a year ago, a guy, I forgot which state it was, where it's criminalized. He had moringa in his car, which is just a harmless supplement. They thought it was kratom. So this guy was in jail for months because they hadn't tested it yet to realize it was not even kratom, it was moringa. So eventually. Until proven guilty, right? Yeah. So he was locked up for, I think he was there for like 8 months or 6 a long time. Insanity happens. Yeah, it's just crazy. So I think it's important for people to understand like the legalities in certain locations. You know, when you mentioned San Diego earlier, that story is crazy.

36:24 The city of San Diego, the reason why they banned kratom, it's the craziest thing because they wanted to take spice and K2 off the shelf. And at the time when they did this, kratom was right next to it in the smoke shop on the shelves. So they love kratom with it. And that's why, to this day, kratom is still banned. But guess what's decriminalized there in California? What? Math. You can you can. Sure you can get like a felony after so many charges, but if they catch you with a certain amount on you or distributing a certain amount, it's not a felony anymore. It's decriminalized.

37:05 So they just want you to pay a fine. It's just that you know and that's it. Slap in the hand and you don't have to go to jail. Nothing. If it's so many things after like 3 strikes you get a felony. I don't know the exact laws on that so don't quote me, but I know that it's decriminalized in California. Now. When I was in California, I was when I was on it because I was in a Slab City, that whole Southern California area and I was still on meth. I remember going to, I think it was Palm Springs wasn't far. It was a little bit north of Slab City. And I was walking down the road with my dog, and I remember looking into an alley and I saw a cop car, the a cruiser, a cruiser with the lights and everything, like broad as daylight.

37:55 And there was a uniformed police officer inside that vehicle smoking meth out of a piezo in uniform and everything. And I realized at this point, like, OK, OK, so now we know why it's decriminalized because they're doing it too. Where, yeah, they're going to take it from you if they find it on you, but they're going to do it. And and don't think they're not like, I'm sorry, I'm going to have to call out the very, very deranged Police Department in California. Like all of them. They're they're a little. We don't have to go there, but they're. Not there's just some crazy laws. There's you know, I don't know if you in Texas where I live. I thought this was seriously last week. I thought it was a joke.

38:45 I saw a random TikTok in my feed in the 4U feed that mentioned something about some new crazy law in Texas that they just passed that criminalize you for being over caffeinated. I think that can't be real. So yeah, I know. So I'm like, I didn't even go Google it or I just thought there's no way that's real. There's no way. And then I casually mention it last week in our Kratom gals live stream. And while we're live streaming people that people heard me say this other and they're in the comments saying let me go Google this. And people came back said, Oh my God, this is real. I'm like, it is. So I go and Google it and was yeah, it turns out that very recently here in Texas, they added to the DWI laws that if if you are over caffeinated, you could be charged with how are they going to test?

39:32 You for that I. Have no idea so fast. I have no idea because like the. Truckers that like live. Right. Monsters and Red Bulls, right? Kidding. You can't do that. So I don't have caffeine when they're working as a driver sometimes. Oh my. I'm not sure, like do they have to do a blood test? I mean, I guess it would be all right. They suspect you of driving erratically. They assume alcohol. They do a blood alcohol test and then or what? And then when they do that, they also check. I don't know, But it just shows the craziness and overreach we're seeing in government because you know, with kratom, we're always under attack with kratom. But to have. State of Texas going after being over caffeinated is is there's a lot of craziness going on. It just shows that they know what we're addicted to. They know what we need to find this crazy society that they've created for us and that, you know, we fuel it too. But now they're like, OK, how can we control it even more? So how can we we know they're addicted. What can we do now?

40:30 They're going to have like a, you know, a section in the laws for caffeine now. And and you're going to have licensing. If you were going to sell over so much caffeine now, right? It's going to get crazy. Yeah, we're looking, we're looking down a road of like, it's a very scary time. It's a very scary. It is scary. It is scary. I want to go back to like your kratom earlier, talk about like green kratom now. Is kratom something that you take every day or as it just as you feel you need it like? What's your routine like? So I don't have to take it anymore. That's the best part. Like I, I don't, I haven't taken it. Geez. Probably like 3 years. There are times when I'm like intensively doing labor intensive stuff. Like sometimes I'll, I'll trim on a farm in Oregon. Don't worry, you guys, it's legal there. I have my OLCC, which is my, my liquor license and all that, that I can, I can work with marijuana up in, in Oregon and all that.

41:25 It's, it's a permit that you pay for you to take a test. So it's legal, but I'll trim and it, it's very high focus, like a high. It's not energy really because you're, you're sitting down while you're doing this, but it, it can be very tedious and like it'll make you go crazy if you don't have the focus to do it. So when I was doing that for some work, I was taking Kratom that and I was taking one dose a day and that was it. It just mixed it with some orange juice in the morning, just like maybe a teaspoon, maybe half a teaspoon, if that, maybe even less. And it would just help me get through this and I would trim like a rock star and I didn't have pain because sometimes when you're trimming with the little scissors, you do get a little bit of arthritis. And so that helped me get through that. I didn't have inflammation.

42:06 And then I was, I would go for a hike in the evening and feel better about my life and not be stuck at this trim room. But that's really the only time I used it after that year, that straight year of using it after I weaned off of meth, I used kratom for a year and weaned off of that. And I wanted to get back to normalcy. I wanted to see it so I didn't have the pain, chronic pain from like an injury or an illness like like you or someone else does. I really wanted to use use it to get off of that addiction and it was an incredible tool that saved my life to do that. So after that year, I only used it because I knew it existed. At this point I was like, well, now I can use it as a tool for other things in my life. And I honestly haven't taken it in about 3 years.

42:47 I haven't needed to. That's great to hear because I don't hear that very often. Not to say there aren't people that, that have gone through what you've gone through and, and, and that, you know, are like you, they, they were able to stop too completely. But most people I talked to that used it as a recovery tool will still take it daily or several times a week. Like it's almost like a maintenance thing. So I find it really fascinating that you don't even need that, which is great because why take it like it's one thing we have chronic pain. Like OK, instead of taking narcotics every day, I'm using a plant which I. Think. You're a wiser thing. But if it was to help stop cravings or feeling sick from, from, you know, something else, it's like, yeah, it'd be nice to, like, get to a point where OK, it, it helped me get out of that, right.

43:38 And now it's nice to know this is a tool that's available anytime I need it, but I don't. Have to. And everybody uses tools differently, you know, like some people use a hammer to break apart pallet wood, other people use it to pound a nail. And it's all about how you use it and what works for you. Absolutely. It's a tool. I love that. That is so awesome to hear. So do you do much advocating? Like I know you're excited to come on and you've you've mentioned to me before, before we started our our chat today, you had mentioned, I think in one of your emails that you that you've talked about it online and, and are helping people. So are you like putting like videos to like, like, you know, you go on my social media, you're going to see me videos of me talking about Kratom and just sharing my personal experience.

44:25 So are you doing that much? I know you're big on TikTok and. Occasionally on TikTok, absolutely. I definitely talk about it in my blogs on YouTube and in Patreon. It's a constant thing because when I, I do 2 lives a week on, on Patreon and that community, you know there that there's a lot of Slab City stuff in there. And because I spent so much time on math in Slab City, I do bring it up a lot that like, listen, if any of you are struggling with this, like I talk about my Matthews freely because I want people to feel like they can too. I've, there's a lot of things in my life that I found like even in, in eating disorder and Ed, if you have gone through something, it's, it's always such a shameful thing. Everyone shames you for it.

45:06 What's wrong with you? Oh my God. And it should never be that way. We should be able to talk about our issues freely because it helps others along their path with the same issues. And when it's it's not, you know, it doesn't like create a bond between you because Oh well, we have the same problem. No, it you're a lighthouse, you become a lighthouse. At that point, when you can overcome something like that, you should be talking about it. You should be sharing your experiences and with Kratom I love talking about that experience because every time meth comes up in my slab city talks in my Patreon in anything I always wrap it up with If you are struggling with this please reach out because there are things that can help you that I can't talk about freely on this app and sometimes I'll spell it out KRATOM or I'll say it rhymes with schmatum and starts with AK. You have to use the code words on TikTok but I absolutely advocate for it even though I'm not using it anymore. I love that you do that.

46:01 You'll need to send me links to some of your specific videos. I can put in the show notes to direct people to that. I'm sure they'll find very useful. Bunny, this is just an amazing conversation. I feel like we could talk all day about this. We'll wrap up with the last question. I always ask all my guests this. Knowing everything you know now about kratom and you know quite a bit because you started this some time ago, what advice would you give to someone? I mean, you've kind of been sharing it. You just shared some stuff. You shared some other advice kind of knowledge earlier, but like if somebody came to you and say hey what advice can you give me to help get me started on this journey, what would you tell them? Do your research, do your research first because each vein, each color there, I'm sure you already know this, but if anyone doesn't know, underneath the leaf of the kratom plant, they usually have three different vein colors, the vein on the leaf. And so you'll hear that a lot.

46:52 You'll hear people talking about the color and that is the most important part because each, each color of the vein, there's red, there's green and then there's white. And each one will do a different thing for you. And even within that, the strains will do different things for you. So definitely do your research, read other reviews, try to get organic obviously, because you don't want any pesticides on there. And then try a little bit at a time and give yourself a variety. Don't be afraid to try different things, but just try a very little bit at a time and, and you can do this. You can do this if you're trying to get off of some kind of drug, you can. If I can, you can. I had resigned myself to math for the rest of my life, and this plant came in and saved my life. And always reach out to me.

47:37 Reach reach out to anyone you know who is advocating for kratom because we can help you through it. Well said, that was excellent advice. Thank you so much for spending time with me and my community and sharing your thoughts on kratom. This you're a wealth of knowledge. So thank you, thank you so much. Same, same. So are you and thank you for doing what you're doing with Kratom 2. Because there's so many people that I have had reach out to me in my DMS on TikTok that have said I'm my cousin is struggling, my friend is struggling, I'm struggling and I'm like, listen, this is how it worked for me. I can't give you doctor's advice, but I urge you to try it and it can work as a great tool. And if I can do it, you can do it too. Yeah, excellent. Thank you so much buddy.

48:21 Thank you, thank you for having me. I'm more than happy to be here and support this cause it's plants are amazing plants. Yes, they are. I have books. You're actually on top of books right now that are additional plants and plants are the Rockies and edible plants and there kratom really got me down that path and to know that everything on earth we need to heal ourselves is right here. It's right here. We just have to learn about it. So don't be afraid to open a book or, you know, study up on a little thing or just Google something or ask ChatGPT I. Would love that. Thanks buddy.