Ep 73: Surviving Pain, Alcohol, and Pills: How Sherry Owings Found Freedom in Kratom

0:00 I took it. And then we went to Walmart and on the way home I was like, you know, I'm not even hurting. I'm not hurting. And I tell him, I said, you know what? I'm not hurting. And he's like, wow, OK, OK, So when he got home, you know, and it got time for me to have that drink you know, I need. Those withdrawals were coming. It didn't go. And I was like, wow, I'm not gonna have that drink. I'm getting emotional and that's where it started. I didn't want that. Drink no more and it wouldn't hurt. So I'm here with Sherri Owens, a super kratom advocate that I know online.

0:48 Great to finally get to see her on screen here with Sherri, I, you do a lot in the kratom community as a consumer and advocate. I'm so excited to have you on to come Share your story. So welcome to the podcast. Good to be here. Yeah, I lot of advocating lot of it. Mr. DB has been tough. Yeah, we're going to have lots to talk about. This is going to be great. So first, let's start with you telling us a little bit about yourself and life before kratom. OK, so I have scoliasis in the the top part of my back and so I pretty much I don't remember not having pain.

1:33 You know, I've always had pain, even as a child started early on my mom in the 4th grade, it started taking me to the chiropractor. So that managed my pain. I still go to my chiropractor, lumbar chiropractor. So went out until I turned 18 and had to start factory life, got married and that's when my pain really, really started being so bad that we just my whole the, the neck pain, the arm and all, it's just everything's compressed in there. So I, you know, reached out and tried pain meds and stuff and they made me so sick.

2:18 Any narcotic like that just made me so sick. I could not take it. So they excuse me instead they gave me Flexeril muscle relaxer. That's when I started and they gave me the volume gave me volume. So I did that for years for about probably, let's see, like 4 years. That's what I took from 18 to 24. I got pregnant with my daughter and I got in a car wreck. Really messed me up and the car went over a bridge and landed on my side. Decided that was bad anyway, but just smushed it all up in there.

2:58 And after that the pain has just been horrific. So I had to start checking the pain meds. But then they would give me something like a Finnegan so I wouldn't throw the payment up. But that was my combination. They would say I'm gonna fit you a cocktail was what the doctor said. So I went through pain clinics and everything trying to, you know, get right and they're like, it is what it is. Had to pretty much I couldn't go back to my factory job and had the baby to take care of. I couldn't even hold her a bottle. It was just terrible. But you know, after that they just kept adding pills and adding pills and adding pills. And so about when I got off pain medicine, I was on 26 different medications. And now I don't.

3:46 I don't rarely ever take a pill. Wow, that's a lot. Yeah. 2026. I was on 26 different medications at the end. That's the end of my journey. I know it blew my mind after I started camping. Like, wow, it's just so emotional to go back and revisit all that and actually sit down and count it up. At my first meeting, my first band meeting because Mississippi the year I found kratom, they decided to ban it Mississippi the year after. So I had to go through all that and it was a very emotional thing to go back. And they would argue I was on and I'm like, how did I even function? You know, I was, I was functioning. So when did you first hear about kratom? How did how did you find out about it? Well, I've been on, you know, the, the pain medication journey for all my life.

4:45 I've been on pretty much. I was, you know, I was pretty sad on the way. I was on some pretty heavy medications at the end I had at one time I was had I had metric and I was no longer taking those, but this would be my day. This would be my day on my pain medication. I had metric and for my real bad times, I and then I had Dorvastat for my just, you know, casual, not so bad. Set up a driving, grabbing a town. I want to grab a garbage that then I had a Vicoprofen and that is it's like a Lortab, but a Vicoprofen's got ibuprofen in it instead of Tylenol. So I had those.

5:31 Then I had my Valium, then I had my stomach there's I had way too much stuff anyway, and I had my sleeping pills because of course I couldn't sleep after I took so and then I had my stomach medicines because my stomach was so messed up for all the pills and then the the irritable bowel and it went. It was just so much. It was a pill to fix what that other pill broke in me. I guess that's the that's where I was at. But anyway, and 2011, 2010 my husband got real sick. He was diagnosed with Parkinson.

6:19 He was got real sick and he had to quit his job. Six months later my daddy had a stroke. So I had to take care of both of them. During during the same process. During these six months is when my doctor told me he could no longer give me my medication, that they had cut down and this is the time I really, really need. I had these two men that I had to take care of, my husband and my father that depended on me. So that was a really bad time to cut my medication. They cut my Valium. I could no longer get my Valium. I've been on since I was 1718 years old and I was 50 at that time, and they just cut them off all my pain medications I could.

7:04 With all that I was getting. I could only get 60 pills now for a whole month and I had to go back every month. This was from my doctor, so that was no way enough. It was no way enough. So I started drinking like just wine at night because I had my daddy living with me and my husband and everything they ate, everything they did had to have my help. So I took my little 60 pain pills that month and at night I would sit down and I would drink just to relax and have me time. And that turned into vodka. And I don't know how I made it through all those years, but I did that for eight years or a little better.

7:51 I had my daddy and my husband in my house, and I functioned like that. A lot of people didn't even know I was drinking. Later, when I told my husband's doctors and stuff, they were like, wow, I can't even believe you were drinking. Yeah, I was drinking. So after that my, my dad did pass away or not before that, but he did end up having more stroke and I had to put him in a nursing home which that was worse. I felt like a failure because I had to get rid of my daddy. And you know, but it was good for him. He he was actually better there. And my husband started getting better. He had a real bad episode.

8:32 He liked to die, but then he got better and he, he is the one that was looking online and he found kratom. He saw in Alabama, he's an Alabama man and he saw that they were banning kratom up there and he started reading about it. He's baby. Look at this, this, that, that it's just going to help your pain, you know, because he was, I was really struggling trying to quit drinking. You know, I, I, he's getting better. My dad was getting better. I was struggling to get better. I was trying my best to get better and I'd actually even went to rehab when I put my dad in and my husband was able to, you know, actually take care of his stuff and everything. I I went to rehab, you know, trying to get better.

9:14 But when I got out, alcohol was still there, my pain was still there, blah, blah, blah. So, you know, I just kept sliding back, sliding back. This was a whole year and it was December. My husband said, I'm going to order you this. I'm gonna argue this, I'm of this crate. I'm like, all right, we'll just order it. You know, whatever, I'll take it. So it came in the day after Christmas and I was trying to he he was helping me because when you're drinking, you just can't quit. You could die. I would go on a binge and he would keep some in the house and hide it for me. So when I would do my withdrawal so bad. That was the worst thing about the, the alcohol with the withdrawals. You could have, you could not have a drink and then you could start having withdrawals decided a week or two later, you know, just the shakes.

10:02 It was just the most I've never had anything to grab me like that and I couldn't get over it. The anxiety attacks, effort. It was just terrible what the alcohol was doing to me to to get past my withdrawal. He would, you know, have some and give me a drink and, you know, keep it away from me so I wouldn't choke it all. He was really hitting me. Anyway, he found my kratom. So the day after Christmas, it came in and I took it. And then we went to Walmart. And on the way home, I was like, you know, I'm not even hurting. I'm not hurting. And I tell him, I said, you know what? I'm not hurting. And he's like, wow, OK, OK. So when he got home, you know, and it got time for me to have that drink you know, I need, those withdrawals were coming. It didn't go.

10:51 And I was like, wow, I'm not gonna have that drink. I'm getting emotional and that's where it started. I didn't want that drink no more and it wouldn't hurt. That's how it began. So after that, and I'm still scared. I wouldn't let him away from me, you know, I didn't go anywhere by myself for six months. I didn't. I was just scared. But I just kept getting better and kept getting better and I started getting off on more pills and more pills that the other pills. I was like, wow, if this leaf can do this, what what does this pill do?

11:32 Limit Do some research, you know, see what this pill does and I can find something that we have that. And that's how I got off my medication. I started finding the the leaf or the tree or whatever or the herb and that's what I would start taking and I'd swing myself up over everything. I was down Effexor, Wellbutrin, Prozac at one time, just a lot of different stuff like that. And that was the harder that was the harder stuff to come off of. But I finally we must have off of all of that. That's amazing. Sherry, how long do you think it took you to you fine kratom? You start using it immediately helped you with alcohol and then over time you're able to wean off all the medications. How long did it take you to wean off of those 26 meds? It was over.

12:23 This was December 2017, December 26th, 2017. It's the day I started my crab. Over the next year I started really, you know, waking up my, my brain started coming back more. So that whole year I went on a health kick. I lost 100 lbs. So over the year, the last thing that I got off of with my Wellbutrin, that took a little longer because it was a little, I would cry a little, but it took me probably six weeks to wean off like from 1/2 to 1/4 or whatever.

13:04 But a year, about a year and four months, I was totally off all the medications, off of everything. I was on gabapentin. Of course I forgot what all I I had a list of all the stuff I was on but it. WAS 26 is a lot. A lot. It was a lot of stuff and. I don't come across that too often where somebody has taken that many different medications. At and I was I was only I was only 50. And so no, I don't, I don't, you know, I don't take anything. I could go, you know, I have an amazing doctor and I'm I'm not going to say everybody doesn't need their medications.

13:45 My husband, he didn't like Kratom it, you know, it hurts his stomach, so he's not gonna take it. If he needs something, you know, he takes his medication. And I have an amazing doctor that I mean, he really helped me too with my withdrawal. I was just straight up and everybody, that's one thing. Be straight up. If that doctor's not going along with you, there's one out there that will. You need a good doctor. Everybody does that you can talk to. And this man had already became my friend because of what all I went through with my husband and he knew my compassion about everything. And I was straight up with him. I'm like, look, I was drinking. I'm trying to quit help me. And he did. He helped me. He gave me Ivs to keep me out of the hospital, you know, and, and he's and now maybe once a year my pain will get so bad.

14:31 I'm I'm garnering and, and I'll overdo it and everything and I'll get him all. And I'm like, doctor, you know, I need something. I'm hurting so bad, my, the herbs aren't getting it. And he'll write out, mark me a prescription out right then because he knows I'm in pain and he knows I'm not going to act. And I, he's never said no, you know, he's never said no. And he knows, he knows I'm a pastor. I told him everything. I just was straight up. He's like my husband's like, I can't believe you tell him all that. I'm like, yeah, he's my psychiatrist too. That is so important to have a Doctor Who understands who listens because you have to advocate for yourself.

15:12 And so many times people tell me that their doctor gets mad at them when they tell them they use kratom and, and they won't listen to them even though they try to educate the doctor. So I'm like you, I I lucked out. I have a really good primary care physician. I told her about kratom from the start when I started going to her and she had not heard of it. But she she wanted to learn about it. And I kept every time I'd see her once or twice a year, I'd educate her on it. And over time she could see by how well I'm doing that. Like here's a woman who suffers from debilitating chronic pain issues. She has all the, the information in the my chart app to see like my history and I come see her and it's like the only thing I use as a plant for my chronic pains.

15:59 And, and she just really has been like so on board with this, like to the point where she always tells me, keep doing what you're doing because it works. And she just keeps showing more interest. I think it's so important to have a Doctor Who listens and is on board with us. And if you, and if the doctor doesn't, then go find another doctor. It's OK to do that. That's right. I mean, they work for you. They work for you. Yeah. Aren't you a good doctor? Because everybody needs a good doctor. One, they're going to need a good doctor. For sure, and just like what you're saying, like if I'm having some really bad muscle pain, I'll ask her like kind of get some muscle relaxers.

16:39 I mean that was something I took a lot of back in my pain management days, but I don't need them anymore. I don't need the opiates. I don't need the gabapentin or the muscle relaxers. But sometimes, you know, the kratom is not helping that part of my pain. And she's she's been great. Like, yeah, because she trusts me. She's, you know, and we have a great relationship. So it just like with you, it's great when you have that kind of patient doctor relationship where they listen and they help you. And it's great to hear that because I don't always hear that, you know, interview people for this podcast. And some people have given me horror stories of how their doctors have treated because. I would not go back to him or her, you know. No, No.

17:20 Yeah. Well, my husband goes to his doctors because they said a lot of problems, you know, if we got better. We don't believe it was Parkinson. I we're pretty sure he was poisoned from a weed killer. You know, it didn't guess because he got better. He got better, but it took years. But I I'll detox. And he had to get out of his body and he had neuropathy and he has nerve trouble and stuff from it. But thank God, gave me, gave me back my husband. That was terrible. It was a terrible thing to go through, you know, and my dad did end up passing, but he got to know me sober. He got to know I was sober. And that was everything to me because he was an alcoholic and he was terrible, you know, don't drink, don't drink.

18:05 That's why I never was a drinker, you know, And that's what really blown my mind that that alcohol got me like that because I was an occasional, you know, we go out or something. I might drink or I was usually the bartender because I took so much medication and I didn't drink, I guess. And I was the day, day, you know, You know, I just put in the drinker and then at 50 it got me. I find it so interesting very that that when you found Kratom, you were looking for a way to stop alcohol, but not you weren't really looking to stop your pain meds, right? I mean, you're really just focused more on the alcohol from your story you were telling us. And it's usually the usually I I love your story because it's so different.

18:51 What I usually hear people say to me is either, you know, they're in pain management and they're get their beds are being cut back or they're being dropped or somebody who is just flat out abusing opiates. You know, however, they're getting access to it. And many times what they'll tell me is, you know, they found kratom is it's been amazing for that. And then it's like, by the way, I realize I don't crave alcohol anymore. It's like alcohol was the secondary thing that like this is amazing. This plant, I was able to stop the opiates, but I don't have a desire to drink anymore. So it's interesting how yours is like the other way around. It's been amazing to help you stop drinking. But because it's an amazing plant, you're like, I don't think I need all these meds anymore and able to wean yourself. Off.

19:39 I've been off pain medication for a whole year. I was only drinking. OK, I gotcha. January 20, January of 2017, I went into rehab and I came out. When I came out, I was on Ativan because I'd already, you know, detox from my medication, you know, got to have even more medication. They didn't give me anymore When I went into rehab. I detox from everything I call and medication which all it was pretty bad but. When I came out, my doctor didn't want to see me anymore, So and I just made my mind up, I'm going to go to my husband's doctor. And when I went to him, I just told him I'm like, look, I've been on all this pain medications. I don't want to go back down that road anymore and I don't want to drink anymore and all that. I want you to be my doctor, but don't never give me no pain medicine.

20:38 I don't want it. No, I shouldn't have did that. I. Don't know. But so that whole year, you know, I didn't get any more pain medicine, but I was drinking terrible. I got to really drinking bad then, you know, because my husband was better. I have nobody to take care of. I was like, I can drink now a lot and we'll have to worry about anybody. So I was, it was really bad. But yeah, it, it was really bad. That whole year was a mess and but my husband stayed with me. It's like I'm going to get my wife back. And he did. He got me back. That's wonderful, Sherry.

21:18 So how did kratom start impacting your day-to-day life and just your overall, overall well-being? Well, I can say I was, I was 100 lbs overweight. It's really bad. I couldn't do anything. I have a business also I'm a locksmith. I have a locksmith service. So, and I, I've had that business for 25 years and I had people that work for me then and you know, they couldn't even, I couldn't even if I get a call and say you got to go in like this or God, I couldn't tell them where to go. It was just a mess and almost lost my business, almost lost my husband did lose my daughter, still working on that trying to get her back because I push everybody away. I didn't want nobody in my life.

22:04 I just wanted my alcohol. So I, I, I heard a lot of people because I didn't care. That stuff makes you not have any feelings anyway. Since I got sober, I've been at every bridge I could and I got rid of a lot of people in my life that I didn't want and I just kept the good and the positive. I'm, I garden now it's just me and my husband. I've got chickens. My son is so proud of his Mama. You know, I've got a good relationship. I've got grandkids now and I advocate a lot of hard work. We did television, radio, we just really worked. And the county bands we've we've been fighting forever. These small bands, we've been able to do all that and I couldn't have never done all that without kratom. I could not get out there today and work in my garden without kratom because y'all got to remember I'll I still have my pain every day and this leaf helps me manage my pain. I'm not all high like I was on those pain pills that my stomach's not all messed up like it was on those pain pills. I don't get up and have to have a pain pill with my coffee. I get up and drink my coffee a couple hours later when I get I think about, oh, I hadn't taken my kratom yet. I'll take my kratom.

23:29 I take mine. I take mine like every three hours maybe or or when I start hurting, I'll say oh, it's time for my kratom. But usually after 3:00 I don't take any kratom. That's my cut off time. About the rest of the day I'm pretty much good. So I don't I don't I don't really have a lot of pain and later in the afternoon if it's real, real bad, I might take a quarter of a dose. I take 2 teaspoons is what I take out and but I couldn't do anything. I know I tell I got a tiller. I couldn't done anything We did it yesterday. I gotta push more. I couldn't have done anything. Wow, you know, that's.

24:11 Amazing I. Was 62. I just rice is my first little baby chicken. I love it. It's amazing. Like we get our life back, you know, for those of us who perform chronic pain, especially as we're aging, cause everything just gets harder as we age. And that's so amazing to hear 'cause when I think back to being in pain management long ago when I, when I was younger, it, I, I just felt so old. I was, I always felt like there's a black cloud over me. Even though the pain meds helped, it only helps so much. Like you're still feeling the pain all the time. And people did not understand, people don't understand me taking these. You know, I didn't tell very many people because, you know, you sit and you say I take Oxycontin. Well, you know, people freak out over that. But the few, you know, family members or close friends that I told, they still didn't understand. And I'd be like, this is like if you took a Tylenol, this is what Oxycontin would be the quote for me. It'd be like, instead of taking a Tylenol that would help you, I got to take a whole Oxycontin that would, you know, knock you out and I'll get some relief.

25:13 I'm not going to get great relief. And I really could not do nearly as much physical activities. And it, it, it was awful, you know, and, and having a young family, it, it, it was no good. And when I discovered kratom, it's like, Oh my God, I mean, I can't do everything, you know, chronic, like you're saying with chronic pain. I mean, I still suffer from pain. It's not as bad and I can just do more. I can do more and be more physically active to an extent. But if I was still in pain management and being older now, I, I wouldn't be, I'd probably be in bed most of the time. You know, I. Was in bed when I was taking all that medicine. I was in bed most of the time when I was taking all that medicine.

25:58 I stayed in the bed most time. I couldn't complete nothing. I don't know how I was driving around with all that. I mean, that was a lot of medicine, but I've had three surgery sets. I've been taking Kratam. I had I had my elbow and my wrist at the same time and I was in a cast for six weeks. I stopped and I realized now how people get hooked on the paint on the medication. I didn't really see it then because I had so much. I never ran out. I never went and bought a pill off the off the street because I had plenty.

26:41 I didn't have to. I didn't. I had plenty. It never got out of my system because they wanted me to keep it in my system. So but when the pain, when I would the pain medication would run out after my surgery, my pain would like double. It would hurt so much worse. And I would take that pill and then by the, you know, when that pain and then that hit me, like now I understand because when I run out of craton, my pain is nothing like when I run out of a pain pill. It's just the pain hurts more when that pain pill is leaving your body and when the Yeah, it's different. And so I, yeah, I quit taking the pain pills and got right back on my kratom and I did so good.

27:25 These three surgeries, I, I recovered so much well, better than any of my other surgeries that I had. I I pop right back up. I'm doing and I'm just, it's crazy. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, and my husband hunt that I can drag. I drag all the deer out of the woods. Yeah, Oh my gosh. That's wild, Jerry. Oh my gosh. Yeah, we always get them and stuff and all that. Just me. And my husband, wow, that's, that's amazing. Just to know that a leaf from a tree allows you to do all that instead of a pharmaceutical from a lab. And am I able to, I can, yeah. No, I, I can unlock, you know, we unlock cars and houses and I can go do all that. I jump up on semis and unlock them and yeah, they're like, wow, you're the one doing that.

28:13 Yeah, look at that. That's amazing. And I'm not knocking the pharmaceuticals because it helped me when I needed them and helps lots of people today and ABS 100 percent, 100%. And I hate how we as pain patients got wrapped up in the opioid crisis and they never should have involved us the way they did with all these government policies and scaring the doctors and putting some in prison, which was a joke. And unless, and that's how I lost access. You know, I was in pain management for nine years, never had any problems, followed all the rules. The doctor, I me and the doctor had a great relationship, but he got scared off because of all those. And he was young too, so I'm sure he was worried about his future.

28:54 So, you know, he sends out a form letter to all of his patients that he's no longer going to prescribe the meds. It's kind of like a little CEA letter, Dear John letter and with a list of other doctors to call. And no, no doctor would take over because when they hear how, what, when you're on high MME, the, the, what they call it the milligram morphine equivalent. I, I, I'm a super fast processor. Like with the meds. I, I've even had a pharmacokinetic test done. My doctor was smart enough to do that, but I think that was to protect him because I was, it took high doses of opiates for it to even touch my pain. And it just turned out when they did a pharmacokinetic test, it just showed that with my DNA, I'm going to process those very quickly.

29:39 So that's why I need high doses and why I need it more often. And when I'm calling all these doctors and trying to find somebody to take over, I mean, they would be like, we don't even prescribe a 10th of what you take. So we can't help you, you know, or we don't prescribe anymore either. And it was like nobody wants to prescribe anymore. They've all been scared off. And what do they expect those pain patients to do? Like I said before I come crate them, I really thought I'd have to go to the streets to go buy the meds that helped me. But I'm buying it on the black market and you don't even know if fentanyl is in it. So you don't know if it's going to kill you even though it even though it just looks like it.

30:20 And I was scared. I didn't even know how to go buy them. Anyway, I'm asking around. Like I seriously started asking around. Like how do I find a drug dealer? And thank God I found kratom during all that because I didn't have to go down that road. But I don't think the medical establishment understands what they do to us chronic pain patients. Like, like, I'm sure with yourself, just like me, we know we have to take something for the rest of our lives, like, like to not suffer, to not be suffering every day. And, and I'm OK with that. I understood this very clearly going into pain management, but to, to lose access and nobody will take over is a scary thing to go through. That's one of the reasons why I'm a big creative advocate. Is it what fuels me to advocate because I don't want somebody to go through what I did.

31:06 Being dropped from pain management thinking you got to go to the streets and and that's a scary prospect. And who knew a little plant could do so much. And for me better. It works way better for me. Like I, I got decent pain relief, like not great pain relief. I got, you know, enough where I could still work and and do things. I wasn't always happy and I was always suffering and pain. But with kratom, it's like sometimes I literally forget that I suffer from pain, like because I it goes away completely. Like right now my back doesn't hurt at all and I just feel great. Now it's going to wear off and I'm going to go need to take another dose. But it's just amazing that a plant works this much better for me than the pharmaceuticals ever did. Right It's crazy and you know, if I hadn't had that relationship with that doctor already, you know, with my husband because it was my husband's doctor, I would have never found another doctor that would just give me a pain medicine when I absolutely have to have one, you know, but it's really hard but anyway, everybody days to get out there and advocate for you for your stuff. You're going to lose it so because. It's so important.

32:17 Yeah, my, my county was banned. We were the second county in Mississippi to ban for a whole year. My county was banned. The sheriff live right across the road from me that got it banned. I was terrified. Yeah, so and I and they put me on the. So anyway, the first county to ban was Lanes County. That's where all the stuff started in Mississippi. So I went over there and of all people to put on the front page, it was me. They put me on the front page and my name and everything. And so then the very next day I saw my sheriff, my next door neighbor on TV said we're going to ban this bad stuff, blah, blah, blah. You know, he was just standing there and here I am on the front engineer and they banned it.

33:08 Our county banned that week before we, I, we didn't even know it was going to be a meeting or anything. They just banned it. So here I am illegal, terrified because the sheriff knows now that I take kratom. And yeah, I was just, it was terrible. It was terrifying. And then I had a girl find me and reached out to me and it's like, you've got to help. And I'm like, no, I'm not even they, my county paper wanted me to do a, a interview and I'm like, no, I live across Redmond Sheriff, I'm illegal right now. I'm not doing it. I'm not bringing the more attention to me. But then I got mad and I'm like, I'm bringing attention to me. I'm not going to let that man over there scare me.

33:51 We're going, we're going, I'm getting my rights back. So we, we thought we got a new sheriff too. He got fired. We got a new sheriff. And that sheriff, he actually went to the meeting with us and he told them he'd rather have me driving around Kratom and drive around drinking. It's before Oh. My gosh, that's great. Yeah. So when this ban was this more than just the sale like this is to criminalize it? Yeah, yeah. You couldn't sell it if if I'd have got caught, but I couldn't even get it delivered to my home because when your county is banned, the credit card processors won't process it or anything. You know, I can't go to I can't go to Amory. So we jumped on it right then we got a little advocacy group. We jumped on it and we got all these cities and towns. We started going with it.

34:43 Our town didn't get banned. I could go to town and buy it and bring it back to my house, but I was illegal. So yeah, make that make sense. But anyway, it took us a year. It took us a whole year to get it done banned, but we did. But we just started going to all, every group every and we and we stopped a lot. We stopped it a lot. And sometimes we think that's listen to us and they we leave and they'd ban it. It was like, Dang it. I'm so glad you're advocating because we need more people advocating. We need more fellow consumers to speak up and speak out. I know some people say, look, I can't because of my job or because of whatever, which I understand. But there's a lot you can do anonymously. You can e-mail, you can call.

35:26 You don't have to go in person. You don't have to say who you are. But it is better if you show yourself as a constituent because they're there to serve you. They're they work for you and so our voices need to be heard, otherwise they will take it away. So it's great that you got people together to advocate. That's awesome. Yeah, well, it took me being in the paper and a lady that her husband actually got off a heroin and she was advocating for him. He owns its own business now in town and doing fantastic. So she found me. She's we've got to do something because he needs this.

36:07 And I'm like, let's do something. So we'd started jumping in and going to meetings, you know, we'd just show up. Hey. I love that now when did when did the band start? What? What year was that? When it first. 2018. OK, 2018. No 2019 20/19/2019 OK 2019 February 2019 Yep. And then Mississippi started banning it and we had our start going to the capital. We started going to capital. A group of us started going to capital and we just thought we just was grabbing them in the hallway. So hey, you need to listen to us. Or he's making a meetings unit because they don't want to talk to you. They don't want to talk to you.

36:49 But they did. They would, some would listen, some had their minds made-up. And then every year, you know, some would leave and some would go. You got to do it every year. You got to go back and grab the one that's not. You can't just sit around and not wait and and don't wait on somebody else. Don't mate on AKA they're busy. They've helped us, but when they're not there, you got to still got you can't 100% wait. You got to get up there because you're fighting for yourself. And I and I would tell everybody like our I don't know if Texas did that or not, like the counties and towns banned. Like you could go ride to like some of my surrounding towns are banned. If I go over there and get caught with it, I'm a criminal. And I wish they would lift all that, but I don't know. It's you never know what town you're going to go to that's that's banned and not.

37:43 It's just it's the wildest thing. It's like, wow, always. Yeah. I don't know if anybody actually had forgotten a fine for having kratom. Pretty much they just didn't the sales. Yeah, I mean, I haven't heard of anything like that in in Mississippi, but but it's hard to get the information to like like, you know, to know, like it did somebody get locked up? It's it's not going to always be easily accessible to get that information because, you know, used to be get a lot of that on Facebook. But Facebook doesn't let you type the word kratom. I think they just lived with them. I think. I think we can finally type the word kratom. I know for a good while if you typed it in it, it wouldn't take you to anything because they basically censored the entire word and removed a bunch of Facebook groups and they took down my Creme Stories podcast Facebook page and they took down a bunch of groups.

38:39 So it makes it harder to advocate because we're not always getting all the information. Yeah, it's hard. And people get tired with all so many of that's just burnout. I mean, we're fighting the same bite over and over and over. Like like I said, there's deep, deep faces every year. You got to go back every year because, yeah, you know, or, or somebody's mom was gonna come to some stuff and you got to go tighten up that, you know, like something. Something it's important to be proactive with it like what you're talking about doing because looking, look at Louisiana, So Louisiana there's they said, they say there's like 300,000 kratom consumers.

39:22 That's how a lot of people, but not enough of them were showing up to any of the hearings. And we were watching a lot of them live on the kratom gals. And we already saw that those legislators in Louisiana, it looked like they'd already made-up their mind for quite some time of what they were going to do. But you still can't beat the impact of having consumers show up and, and speak their voice because they have to listen. Even even if they don't want to do what you want, they still it when you that presence, an overwhelming presence does make a difference. But we just weren't getting enough people showing up in Louisiana. And I think what happens is people don't know until it's too late. So now you know, August 1st has come and gone and I I'm sure they're probably 10s of thousands, maybe more, way more because they say there's 300,000 consumers that probably have no idea is now not just banned but criminalized where they could go to prison. And the next time they go their visit their smoke shop or go buy online, they're in for a rude awakening, not knowing that this has already happened and there's nothing they can do at the moment.

40:28 I mean, they could could go make some calls. It won't change anything right now. But they're going to have to get out there and advocate a lot to help undo this. And we know it can be undone because look at Rhode Island. Rhode Island just got reversed. They've had a ban for years. It got reversed is doable. But you know, I think too many times consumers think, oh, nothing's happening here, so I'm safe. And I thought that for a while being in Texas, because we have a KCPA, we have a consumer protect, a kratom Consumer Protection Act. And you think, oh, well, they've got regulations here in my state, so I'm safe. A lot of us thought that. And then what happens earlier this year, they brought a kratom bill to to ban and criminalize just like Louisiana. And we're like many of us consumers and advocates were like, wait a minute, but we have a KCPA. What's going on?

41:16 So they tried really hard. Luckily it did not, you know, it got through the Senate. It stopped at the House and died in in committee, Thank God, But it's been a wake up call to a lot of us in Texas. So I I like you. I've assembled people. I have like a whole e-mail list of all of us Texas kratom consumers. And now we're like, OK, we got to be proactive. Our our in Texas. They they do every two years. We got two years until it starts back up again where they will probably try to reintroduce it. So me and others in the community are like, OK, we got two years to go to Austin and go knock on those doors and talk to people.

41:57 Every hour. We, we have to do it. And I was in Washington, DC earlier this year with AKA and other kratom advocates and kratom industry people doing just that, you know, on Capitol Hill. I've done it twice now. I've been there to go talk to legislators and staff and it makes such a difference. And especially when they hear from somebody like me that suffered from chronic pain and be able to share my story and tell them about how I went from 9 years of daily opiates to a plant and then pulling out my Kratom bag. You know, I'd have it in my backpack. This is what I, and every time they look and go, I'd open it up. I said, this is what I take. It's just a powder. I, I drink a tea and every time they go like, that's it. It looks like macho like, you know, we're educating these people, but we have to be proactive and not wait because otherwise it'll be like Louisiana. One day you're going to wake up and and you have no access and you'll you'll be a criminal and go to prison. Like, I mean, this year it is everybody we talked to like, wow, I've never heard this, this side of it. I've just heard the bad stuff.

43:04 You know, you take it, you take it. You know, all of us were different, all different ages. We took it for different things. One lady takes it for seizures, but she didn't have seizures anymore because she takes it. And she was having them like two or three a day and now they're gone. So yeah, it's crazy. But yeah, we have lunch with them. It's they're just people. They're all people. Everybody's dared to talk to him. If you don't talk to him, they're going to take your rights away. I've just. 100%. Though advocating through this, my eyes is really opened up to how crooked our government is now. I'm just saying it and you better keep your eyes open there because they will take your right of any way they can because they get paid to take your rights.

43:53 Yes, we're not we're we're fighting for all right. Why Big Farm is there in their pockets the whole time and I have seen so much and just, you know, no more matter how much science we put out there, Big Farm, it's putting out the book. So you just, you know, you got to keep you got to let them know that you're oh, votes them in and votes them out. They might get a payday, but they might not be there next year for getting a payday because. You exactly, exactly. And our voices matter. Our voices. So many times people think their voice doesn't matter. It does matter. Every voice matters. It makes a difference when you call your senator and your house reps and and even call locally to your City Council and the mayor.

44:39 Every good helps to hear our personal story. That's why I do this podcast. I want people to come on and share their personal story of how kratom has helped them and is so incredibly powerful. And so we just, we need more people doing this. We need more podcasts like this. I you need to be like a whole bunch of kratom stories, podcasts, you know, we, we need more stories out there for people to hear because what we're doing is normalizing the plant. Right, right, right. God gave us everything we need. I mean, every, every pail that's made it, it came from a plant, just about everything. Exactly. I turned it into a. Chemical, right, right. I take the plant turned to a chemical. But, you know, we want to just consume the natural plant as it's intended to be.

45:24 And as Doctor McCurdy says, it's a Symphony with all the alkaloids. And it's so true. The the wing, it just works together to help you with pain, with some energy, with so many things. You know, it's just an amazing plant. Look, let's talk about 70 H. That's been like a it's interesting. I've had this pie cast for a few years and it seems like now more than ever we're we're hearing about 7. OH constantly people are confused. They think is is strong kratom. A lot of people have been misled. I'm going to be perfectly clear at the start of this. I'm not for prohibition. I don't think it should be schedule one. I just think it needs to be regulated and probably should be scheduled.

46:05 But schedule 1 means it can't be researched. And when I, I don't agree with that, but it's a hot topic right now because the FDA just came out and they're going to recommend the DEA schedules in a schedule 1. And it's bringing a lot of awareness that 70 H and kratom are not the same thing. And you and I as advocates, I feel like all I do these days on social media is try to explain the difference because people think they're all the same. And it used to be we're trying to explain the difference between powder and extracts and we don't let nobody talks about extracts anymore. Is Craten powder is 7 OH and seven OH is like a semi synthetic, basically an opioid according to the researchers. But it's it's just this really strong. I hear it's great for pain relief, which is awesome. So it should be research, it should be studied, it should be regulated.

46:50 But what are your thoughts? Because this is a hot topic at the moment. Oh gosh. Well, I've never tried it. I've never tried it everywhere, but I mean, I've tried the extract. I just don't need them. The leaf does it for me. It just does it for me. So and I'm not going to sell, but I might not ever try it. I might try it, but I just haven't yet. But it's made it definitely harder for me and my job trying to protect my leaf because of the advertising from it, the way it's been pushed out, the potency of it. And I have seen people, you know, that's buying so much of it.

47:38 And that's what's scary to me, that it is addictive that people would buy so much of it like they do. And but anyway, that's not my business. But I do want it. I don't want it scheduled because I mean, if it's helping people, absolutely, you know, let them have you know what's helping them and and I do want it studied more. You know, just like kratom. I wanted it studied. We didn't want it scheduled, but it does need to be under control. I don't think it should be in the gas station. I don't think kratom should even be in a gas station. To tell the truth. I would never buy kratom out of a gas station. If they wanted that bad, go to a herbalist ordered offline. The the reason it's brought so much attention to you 7 HO people because it's in the gas station and it's and it's advertised like it's a Percocet or hydrocodones and stuff. I mean y'all advertising it to cause attention. I actually thought the government, it was a big government thing doing it because it came out so big so fast.

48:46 And I'm still not not certain that it wasn't because that stuff come out two years and for it to get so big so fast, somebody was really pushing it. But anyway, whoever did it, they've already made their billions. They can go retire now, but we've got a miss on our hands to clean up after it. So I don't want it scheduled. I do want it regulated and I do want it out gas stations. I won't credit about gas stations though. So but in Mississippi, that's what we did. I don't think the anything that's not disappear credit. It cannot be in the gas stations anymore. So that the seven HO was going anyway out of Mississippi.

49:26 It's already gone. They already took it off the ship. So it's supposed to be. And I mean, it's just made our fight that much harder when all that came out the past two years. But teach your own. I mean, like I said, I might if it gets studied and I see that it's good, it might help me. Right I. Might want to take. I might want to take. More you know exactly, but calling them drug names like Roxy. Right. What was a high hydra like they have? All these blood names, I just this my mind is blown after I really started looking like wow. And that's the gas station heroin they're talking about. It's never been the kratom, but it just made it made my job a lot worse. It's the marketing of it.

50:11 Yeah, It really shows that those manufacturers were extremely greedy. They knew how they were going to market it and market it so inappropriately. It should not be in gas stations. It should not have drug names. They should have just done things right. So people need to point the fingers. The people in the Seven O community that are upset about this need to point the fingers at those manufacturers. They're the ones that did this. They're the ones that they could have. They could have done this a much better way. Should never have called it kratom and get and have smoke shops giving out free samples. You know how many people have not two, I'm sure you have two. That said, and I'll start with a free sample. They gave me the smoke shop and telling me it was just kratom. A lot of these people said they were very familiar with kratom. They'd already used powder kratom and they just thought, OK, yeah, they it's just a little bit more of a stronger kratom and it's the marketing was done so inappropriately. They could have avoided all this, but it just seemed like they were just doing a big money grab at the expense of people's lives.

51:11 Yeah, that made my job a lot harder. It was it was bad enough when the extracts started coming out and feel free that it's not great but anyway, that's what I thought yeah and yeah that's what I thought 7 HO people that we didn't do that. Y'all did that every, everybody this on you and your and your people that put it out like that, which like I said, it came out too big too quick. And if it goes belly up, I mean whoever they made their money, whoever did that they made their money. They're not they're not worried about us. They're not worried about what they weren't. They made their money. Yeah, they made their money and they're going to keep making their money because I'm sure it'll be a while before it gets taken off the market.

51:52 If if it gets to that, you know, for any the Pro 70 community members, if they're listening to this, can I navigate? We've been saying that all along to them. It's like you'll see us advocate, we go to our state capitals, we go to DC, we talk to people, we share our experience. Why don't they do that? They they don't show their faces at any of these hearings. They don't go and talk to people. Now with this threat, I hope this is getting them pumped up about starting to advocate. But you know they need instead of finger pointing, start making phone calls, make videos and go do something about it. Put your energy into that and. Your science out there, Yeah, but your science out there.

52:35 But yeah, the hundreds of 80s and it's been hundreds over all these years. I've never seen one there for the extracts or the 708. I've not. I've been at the Capitol so many times, I've never seen one. Not one. We've had press conferences for our credit. I've never seen one, Not one sign 708, not single one. That's your time to shine if y'all really want to save it because I mean, I know a lolly y'all love it. And I've got to say I'm not trying to be ugly or anything, but y'all better stand up and save your stuff because their business take it and and it will be really sad if they schedule that.

53:16 And it can't be if it's something truly good. It's everybody saying it is. I mean to sell that many of it something going on with it. But when they get studies out, I might try it if it's if it's good. But I sort of had pool shock in it. That's what scared me. Right, right. I'm. Thinking that's what they may crack with back in the day, wouldn't and stuff like that. I don't know. Exactly. But you know, leaf powder works so great for me. You said it does for use. It's like I have no desire to go take anything else. But if there came a day where powder just wasn't working anymore, then yeah, I probably would try it and use it responsibly like I did with my opiates and pain management. I never overused them.

53:57 I always, you know, took what I needed and, and did it, did it the right way. Sherry, this is such a great conversation. I feel like we could talk all day because there's just so much to talk about. But we'll wrap up with, you know, knowing everything you know now about kratom. You know, a lot. You, you, you've been consuming it for seven years, almost eight years now. What advice would you give to someone who's just starting in their own kratom journey just to help them along? Well, just like from me, when you start, when you buy, buy samples. Don't just buy a whole bunch at one time.

54:39 Buy a few samples like me. Everybody loves the greens. Grains put me to sleep. I cannot take a grain. I cannot. Everybody's like these grains are so good and I want that grade. I want it nothing to me that I cannot take a green. But red, yellows, I can take gold. The white makes me too jittery. You know, I could take a little bit of that with the red. But but yeah, buy samples about just a little bit to say that what's going to help you start out slow. Don't don't just take a whole tablespoon. Take a half a teaspoon or a teaspoon if he doesn't. If it's not helping, about 30 minutes later, take another half a teaspoon.

55:30 Do that every 30 minutes until you do feel like your pains getting relate. And then the next time you you dose, add up how many teaspoons it took to get you to your pain level controlled. And that's what you take for your next dose. Like if it took you up to 2 teaspoons, that next time you take that full 2 teaspoons. And yeah, that's how I that's how I did. That's how I did mine to get to my dad's. I hope that makes sense, but. Yeah, low and slow. That's what we always think low and slow. Take your time and keep a journal because that'll help you as you figure out your dosing. Yeah, I would go back and I and I bought for different vendors because it helps me rotate.

56:20 I've got like 3 reputable vendors that I'll buy from and I'll take their stuff one day, their stuff one day and another. I do the same. I rotate every every dose I rotate. I don't take the like I'll take you know, one that one and the next dose I'll take somebody else's. And I never take the same dose at the same time because I do build up the power if I do take breaks, which I rarely do because my credum just helps me. But sometimes I'll just want to take a break to kind of do a reset and I don't have withdrawals. The only thing it does with me at the end of the night, I may have a restless legs, my legs, they get a little restless and I'll get up and I'll take just 1/4 of a teaspoon and my restless legs are gone away. And that way I could go on and do my reset, you know, and, and then by day 2, day three, whenever I decide to go back to my grade, I'm, I'm good and it helps so much more. It's a lot better.

57:23 But that's how I do my resets so. It's all great advice. Thank you so much for sharing all this. I'm so glad you came on the podcast. This has been really helpful. I know people definitely got a lot, a lot out of this conversation with you. I hope so. I don't. I feel like I'm, I don't know. I'm trying to think of anything else that would help. Just don't just yeah, you're going to hear this so much. And I, I couldn't get it at first because I was trying to take more, you know, and you kind of throw it up. For one thing, if you take, you're going to throw it up, but less, less is more. The less you take, the better.

58:05 It helps. Instead, if you take, if you take like a whole bunch of it at one time, it's just not going to help. It's going to make you more sleepy then, you know, help you more me more brighter and functioning. You know, it, it, it, it'll knock you out. It's what I'm trying to say. If you want to be able to function through your day, just take a little bit of it. It'll help your pain and you could still be able to motivate, yeah. Well said. Love it. Thank you so much for spending time with us, Sherry.