Ep 61: Tresa Duckworth's Kratom Transformation: Hope for Chronic Pain Sufferers

0:00 I'm standing up straighter, I'm smiling more. My husband's noticed an improved mood. I've noticed an improved mood. I'm able to walk further and it's not magic. It's not a magic potion. I still have back pain. It's nothing like it was, and I can do more things for longer periods of time than I could before. Welcome to Kratom Stories, a weekly podcast where we share stories of how this amazing plant has changed our lives. I'm your host, Madeleine Sklar. Each week I'll bring you a new episode featuring interviews with experts, advocates, and everyday people who've experienced the benefits of kratom first hand.

0:48 Join me as we dive deeper into the world of this botanical wonder and discover the amazing stories behind this incredible plant. The Kratom Stories Podcast is presented solely for educational purposes. Neither the podcast nor its host promote or endorse the use of kratom, a substance not yet regulated or approved by the FDA. The views and opinions expressed by guests are theirs alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the host or the podcast. The content is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified healthcare provider with any questions regarding the use of kratom.

1:53 I'm here with Teresa, a lady that is very new to kratom and has quite the story to share. Teresa, I'm so glad that you're sitting down with me. I want to get started with having you tell us a little bit about yourself and life before kratom. Hi Marilyn. Thank you for having me. Well, like yourself, I was a pain patient and how I became a pain patient was being a correctional officer with the state of California. I did that for about 14 years and had a couple injuries during that time. Before that I was very active person, hiking, hiking very outdoors, very active, pretty fit for the job. And about nine years into the job, I had a back injury. And then we also, these officers wear a very heavy belt that sits around our waist on our hips full of equipment and that weighs about 15 to 20 lbs.

2:53 So that went on to cause a little bit more damage. I worked this way for many years, going to the doctor, trying physical therapy, anti inflammatories, ablations, injections, all the things they do, and eventually ended up on opioid medication. I was also medically retired due to the severity of my back injury and disc disease, so very was unable to do the things I'd love to do for years, taking medication which slowed me down. I was gradual weight gain over the years and really took away a lot of physical things that I enjoy doing. Luckily, I took that time to go back to school and get my bachelor's and master's degree, so I didn't kind of go into that depression that some people get for having that part of their lives taken from them.

3:53 So I made use of my downtime. I was retired at 49 years old. I was too young to stop doing anything. So I went back to school, years of taking pain medication, I definitely developed a physical dependency. I didn't feel that I had an addiction, so to speak, more than as much as a physical dependency. And I did take them as prescribed. But as new and most pain patients know, recently in the last few years, they've really decided to crack down on prescribing pain medication. So you start getting prescribed less and your body has to adjust and you do less physically and it's a big adjustment. So I started researching creative. I actually found you on TikTok.

4:45 You would have my first introduction to it. And I thought, this lady's telling me that this grant, this natural legal plant helps her pain medication. And you, you actually said what was wrong with your back and your neck? And it was many of the things that were wrong with me. And we're, I think we're similar age demographics. And I thought, is this lady selling something? How could a natural thing work? So I researched her. I watched the documentary, I spoke to Jordan of New Hope Botanicals. I just talked to different people and read different things about Preda, and after losing one of my pain medications to another manufacturer back order, I said this is it.

5:33 I'm tired of playing games with the doctors, the pharmacies making me feel sick every time they run out of my medication that they prescribe me. I'm going to try Preda. So I really took the lead from you. I placed an order for a couple of different strains and colors, couple of different vendors and I had it all on him and he said no more opioids in the garbage they go. Went to bed that night, woke up starting to feel the effects of withdrawal, not having the medication in my system and I said OK. This morning is kratom day and it's going to be this from now on.

6:13 And for the 1st week or two I found I was doing as you suggested. Less is more. Started with the green, started with just a flat teaspoon. I was very afraid to take too much or feel weird. And I for the first week I was pretty much managing withdrawal symptoms more than pain. And I was getting frustrated. And I did reach out to you. You helped many times do this. And I said I'm not getting pain relief. I'm only managing. I don't feel sick, but I'm not, I'm not getting the pain relief. I'm very frustrated. And he said keep going, stick with it.

6:56 And Jordan, actually I reached out to him about it too, and he said I don't think you're taking a nap. Those of us that are opioid tolerant I think need to start with a little more kratom and that's just my personal belief. Don't take the least medical advice. People that are opioid tolerant need to start with more kratom than people that are opioid. My and I upped the dose a little about a a rounded teaspoon instead of a flat teaspoon and it started helping with my pain. I fiddled around, I ordered a measuring weighted a weight spoon like a scale spoon so I could see exactly how many grams I was taking.

7:40 I kept the journal like you suggested every time I took it, how I felt on my pain scale, what color I took, and on the pain pills. I don't think I ever got below A7. A really good rested day is 6 but I still hurt. I think people don't realize your pain medication isn't working as well as you think it is. Opioids have a an excellent ability to make you not care about your pain as much more than they have the ability to eliminate pain. So with the kratom and now that I have my dose down, I'm taking about 5 to 6 grams of green four or five times a day.

8:29 If I have a really bad pain day, I will replace one of those doses with red. I found if I'm in a lot of pain and really struggling, I'll take a dose of red midday and it really helps. My pain gets down to like a three or four now. I never saw that on pain pills and at one point I was taking 90 MMM ES of opioids a day. This was prescribed to me by my doctor and I was still at a six or seven almost every day. So I can totally relate to those tricep because I when I was in pain management, my MME, the more morphine milligram equivalent was even higher than yours at 90. I know that they try to keep patients at 90 or less. I was closer to 200.

9:17 So I was taking really high doses of Oxycontin, Percocets, hydrocodones for my pain. And just like you, my pain level would be a six or A7. On a bad day, it'd be 8 or 9. So I can totally relate to what you were saying in pain management. And then when I discovered kratom and found the right dose and the right color, my pain level goes to a zero. And it's just so hard to believe that a plant can do that. Like have you just been amazed that your pain level? Is really I Really. And I adore you so please don't take offense to this. I really thought you were a snake oil salesman the first time I heard you because I thought there's no possible way this woman is being truthful or she doesn't know what pain is like. But getting to know you, I feel like it was destined that I met you and you were able to help me. And I'm hoping I can help someone else by doing this interview with you.

10:15 I mean, it is a lot of opioids to take and like we're talking, they don't really work that well on your pain. They just make your brain happy because they're feeding those opioid receptors that go, I don't really care that I hurt so bad. And it's, it's very, a very much a false sense of Wellness. It's I really, I never believed I take this powder. I don't feel drugged. I don't feel high. I don't feel jittery, which was some of the main things I was afraid of starting this. I thought, I don't like the effects of marijuana. Some people, it works great for me.

10:56 I don't like it. I don't like drinking alcohol. I don't like the way that makes me feel. So I was really leery that this was going to make me feel loopy or worse, anxious and jittery. It doesn't do any of that. I was worried that I couldn't drink my coffee every morning with it. I thought I'd get too jittery. It doesn't do any of that and I'm standing up straighter. I'm not hunched over like a 80 year old woman. I'm only 55 and I was walking around like a 75 year old woman half the time and I'm standing up straighter, I'm smiling more.

11:39 My husband's noticed an improved mood. I've noticed an improved mood. I'm able to walk further and it's not magic. It's not a magic potion. I still have back pain. It's nothing like it was and I can do more things for longer periods of time than I could before, but I still have days where I'm like, I hurt and today I have to rest. So it's not a magic being. It's very effective, but I admire that. You say you get down to a zero on your pain skill. I haven't had that yet, but it's only been not quite two months for me either. And I don't think most people do, you know, I just go on social media and I speak my truth. I'm not surprised you say that initially. You're hearing my, my story, my videos and thinking snake oil. I'm sure people do.

12:33 I just keep putting my message out. I keep sharing my personal experience because that's really all I can do is share my personal experience. I'm always amazed. I'm always shocked. I've been consuming kratom every day for 5 1/2 years and every day I'm still like, wow, I can't believe how well it helps my back and my neck with my pain. Because like you were saying, I can remember just that feel like I always felt like I was hunched over. I had such a hard time getting up and down because of my lower back. I always had to use my arms and hands and push myself up from a sitting position. I always had to brace myself to sit down. I just looked older than what I was and felt older because of the debilitating pain. And that's with the opioids and pain management.

13:14 But with kratom, I just feel like I got a whole new lease on life where I just don't. So I do have bad days too and I think we all do. And you're so right, it's not a magic potion and it affects everybody differently. And you know, it's just a plant. It's a raw leaf powder. I just hear so many people saying it's worth better than the opioids do, which is just to me always so amazing to hear other people's stories with us it. I agree and I feel like you. I'm continually amazed that this natural plant that's not causing me any ill effects is more effective than pain pills that over long term damage our liver, damage our kidney. There's definitely long term cognitive deficits for taking opioids.

14:03 What I tell you, my biggest fear about this and my biggest hope is that I can help someone make the decision to try this like you helped me. If it weren't for you, I would have never done this. And I hope someone says, oh, if it wasn't for that trust that interview, I would have never done it. That would be great. But my fear is that this will be taken from us. Do you fear that that big Pharma will see what's happening and kratom will be? A thing that hangs over us as kratom consumers because in 2016, the FDA tried to federally ban kratom because they're in bed with big Pharma, right?

14:49 And we know Big Pharma does not want us using a plant for our pain. It also helps people with anxiety, depression, ADHD. So many people are on pharmaceuticals that could very well do just as as well or better using this plant called kratom. So they pressured, I mean, I can't say for sure, but all of a sudden the FDA tried to get it banned federally. So I'm sure that came from big Pharma. And in 2016, they were trying to schedule and set it as a schedule 1. So putting it alongside heroin, fentanyl, all the schedule one drugs, even though this is not a drug. And apparently there was a huge outpouring of support for kratom from people all over the US to the point that the FDA had to step back and reconsider this.

15:40 And they were not very forthcoming with information, with studies and research. All these years later, they're still trying to ban it, sadly. Now, what happened in 2016, even though it did not federally get banned, there were six states in the US that decided let's just go ahead and ban it in our state because the government's about to ban it nationally. Let's just go ahead and ban it at our state level. And sadly, those particular states is still banned. And it's so hard to get things unbanned. Even though there's research, there's so much information that shows that kratom is not harmful. The FDA has even done a single dose study with humans about a year ago and shows that is safe at all levels.

16:25 They fed these participants capsules they gave them. I mean, this is just hard to believe because you say you're taking about four to 5g per dose. I take about 5 grams per dose. Oh, no, you said 5 to 6g and I'm taking about 5 grams per dose. And for me that's about two teaspoons. They were in this study, they used capsules, they gave them capsules, 12 grams of capsules in a 5 minute period these participants had to consume. So first of all, that's like more than double for me. That's double for you and capsules. You're ingesting a lot of capsule shells if you're taking that much powder. So this, I think those capsule shells alone would make me nauseous.

17:06 So the only adverse reaction in this study with people was that a few people got nauseous. That was it with 12 grams of powder in capsules. So the FDA is has not publicly put this out. You know, it's been presented at some at a kratom symposium with researchers last year. But you go to the FDA's website and they demonize kratom. Right. And the, the there's no respiratory depressant. No, there's not. And and opioids, that's the biggest I know friends of friends that had died from using excessive opioids or mixing with other substance. And you stop breathing and die in your sleep. The the fear of that is what kept me from ever abusing my opioids or drinking alcohol while taking opioids because you can literally stop breathing and die. Yeah.

17:58 And it happens. That can't. Happen. Yeah, it happens to pain patients. You know, it's just it happens sadly. You know, you're prescribed from your doctor and whether you're combining it with alcohol, taking too much or having an adverse reaction with that in another, like some over the counter, I think I've heard stories with like Benadryl or cough syrup, you know, that that some people interact and it kills them with kratom. It's not you're not going to stop breathing. Researchers have done so many studies with this. The top kratom researchers, they all say the same thing, that there's no respiratory depression and the people that have died is a very, very small number. And the ones that have they're typically polydrunk use.

18:39 So they had all these other substances in their system plus kratom. And many times they're, you know, narcotics. They're this fentanyl, It's heroin. It's all these things that, you know, is what caused the death. But because kratom was in their system, some of these medical examiners have decided, oh, it was a kratom death. And it's just really frustrating because the government really keeps trying to find ways to ban this plant that helps millions of people in the US. And so it is always a constant thing that hangs over us. It is a fear. They can't patent it. They can't make money off it. And it's not just helping pain patients, like you said, it's helping people with depression, anxiety. I saw a video yesterday where a man was very chronic alcoholic and he said he was able to stop drinking alcohol. And I thought, wow, I never even thought about that. And alcoholism is, it's one of the addictions and diseases that will kill you and it's a slow death and it'll kill you. The withdrawals can kill you.

19:47 So I think only alcohol and Xanax are the only two withdrawals you can actually die from. But if kratom can help people with addictions that you know, withdrawal could actually kill you. That's kind of a wonder drug. Right. This is why a wonder. Plant, I should say, Yeah. Wonderful. This is why I advocate so hard, because I spent nine years in pain management. I never heard of kratom. Nobody ever mentioned it in the pain community. I wish I'd known about it sooner. I would have started way sooner. And I don't want anybody to go through what I went through, which was being dropped from pain management through no fault of my own. Because not only do you have the FDA with their issues, you know, with pain management and wanting to reduce the production of opioids and have doctors not prescribe as much, you know, and, and take away kratom.

20:38 It's like they just want to take away everything for pain patients. They don't want to take an opioids or they want to curb how many opioids except Suboxone, except Suboxone. Well, that's that's a big money maker. And so, yeah, they're forcing doctors to prescribe that instead. And it's not designed to treat pain and it rots your teeth out. There's lawsuits now, people suing the makers because they've lost all their teeth. And these are people that were have, you know, are young. And. Sad. Yeah, and terrible, terrible withdrawals from what I understand. Very bad withdrawals. Opioid withdrawals are uncomfortable, but Suboxone or I guess are really that and the doses are much higher. I, I don't understand, but you know, I would have refused, I would have never agreed to Suboxone because of what I knew about it.

21:27 So I'm so glad to have found kratom. It's an amazing plant. I do feel cheated that it was kept from us like. Right. Why didn't people say you don't want to take opioids, you should try this natural plant? Yeah, or if you're getting, if your doctor is tapering you down, you know, some, I mean, a lot of people are like me that were just completely dropped, like we're not prescribing anymore. You need to go find a new Doctor. In my case, no other doctor would take over. So what am I supposed to do? They don't understand in the medical community, if you take away our ability to get prescribe medications for our chronic pain that we're going to have to like go to the streets and we shouldn't have to go the streets to go by illegally. The medications that at least allowed us to have some quality of life.

22:14 And that that was the direction that I was headed, which I did not want to go to. But I didn't know what else to do. And thank God I found kratom from the documentary of Leap of Faith. It just happened to pop up on my Netflix. It's now on YouTube. I'll put the link in the show notes if people want to check out the documentary. But that documentary is what opened up my eyes and I'm thinking, why does nobody talk about this in the pain community? So that's why I'm very vocal on social media with this podcast, wherever I can go and share my message that there are alternatives and people in the pain community are starting to learn about kratom. They're finding my videos, they're finding this podcast. And I just want people to know there's alternatives, there's other things that's worth looking into.

22:57 And I would have, I would have loved to have fired my pain management doctor. You know, I hated that I had to go through what I went through. It was, I feel terrible that you just got dropped like that, but I think that's where all pain management is headed, honestly. And I feel that one day they're all going to say you either take the Suboxone or you're out up on the streets. Sorry, sorry about your luck. I fear for people having surgeries and not being prescribed opioids after. I think you know, Claudia, Claudia also, she talks about mastectomy patients, amputees being sent home with no opioids. It's horrible.

23:42 And again, this is where kratom's going to come in. And I fear that once the Pharmaceutical industry starts losing millions and millions of dollars over a natural holistic remedy. And there's so much bad information about kratom, too, when I started researching it, there is all these, you know, fear tactics, scare stories, the stuff you buy in the smoke shop, the liquids, the extracts. And that's not what you and I are talking about or promoting. That's garbage. I don't even know what's in half that stuff. I went only through your vendors, that through your experience. That's all I'm using to buy my kratom, the leaf, the tea.

24:25 It's natural. I would never try those other things from the gas stations or smoke shops and I think those can be dangerous. Well, anything that's an extract can be dangerous, not just for kratom, but like there's all kinds of things out in the world that are an extract version, which means it's going to be stronger. It's synthetic. And it's sad that you got a whole leaf powder. Kratom that we consume. We're responsible users. It's just a plant. It's just powder. We got other products called kratom that are extracts. They're very potent. They're synthesized from one or two extracts from the plant. And there's confusion with people. They just think all kratom is kratom.

25:07 But there are products out there that I have never taken, I will never take and I would never recommend anybody take You like what you're talking about. Whole leaf kratom powder is the way to go. If you don't get the relief you're looking for with that, I would be very careful with, you know, moving over to these other products. I find that when I hear these stories of people abusing extracts or these new 708 products we're hearing about, they're just trying to get high. They're doing what they did with opioids. They just consume a crazy amount and then blame kratom for their problems because of that, you know, and it just gives kratom a bad name.

25:47 It's kind of the American way. We, we like to take a good thing and use it to excess and then blame that thing for our excessive behaviors. And the reason I say that because it was you, how long has it been used in Pacific Rim countries where they were just using it fine. And it wasn't until it came to America and became readily available, like you said, all these synthesized versions that we took a a good thing and kind of just screwed it up. And it's because of excess. And if you take too much of anything, you're going to get sick. If you drink too much coffee, you're going to get sick if you drink. You know, we just, we're very big on excess in this country. And I think that's where a lot of the problems come from. I totally agree.

26:38 I want to back up to when you were first learning about kratom. So you mentioned earlier that you've found out about kratom through my tick tock, right? You, you first. That was when you first heard you saw my tick tock. So I'm just wondering like, how did my tick tock show up on your feed? I mean, probably it could. I mean, if you were like following Claudia Morandi, you mentioned, you know, she's great advocate for the pain community. She shares so much information. So I'm connected with her. I get on her TikTok all the time and comment she's actually shared some of my videos. Even though she's not a kratom consumer, she is all for kratom as an alternative if you cannot get your pain meds. So I'm wondering in the TikTok algorithm, is that why you because you had never heard of kratom before?

27:22 But I guess you are getting content about the chronic pain community, is that right? Yes, I am certain the algorithm steered me towards you because I did follow Claudia and I believe a few other chronic pain patients learning how to advocate for myself to continue to be prescribed the pain medication. And I will have to say by my doctor, I had it I one doctor for years and then he left to move to another state and I got a new Doctor and that's really when the problem started. She just wasn't going to prescribe opioids to anyone. And through Claudia, I did learn to advocate for myself and speak with her on the level that she understood I wasn't part of the problem.

28:08 And she was still prescribing for me. And I was very grateful because a lot of people got just kind of the bums rush out the door, like you said, what happened to you or they just got dropped completely. So I'm definitely certain and thankful that the algorithm steered me to you from the chronic pain community. I'm so glad because that's my mission has really been to just try to help people in the shoes I used to be in, you know, when I was in pain management and what would have loved to have learned about an alternative. But also trying to help people that are getting dropped or being tapered down just to know that, hey, I've been there. I understand this and this is something that's helping me. You don't have to believe me, but I'm going to keep putting my story out because it's my truth.

28:55 And if it just helps one person, I'm so happy. Like I just anybody that wants to hear my stories, learn more about this plan. I always encourage everybody do your research, you know, learn more. Here's some information, you know, go learn more about it. Feel free to ask me questions. And I'm just amazed that more and more people are starting to look into this now in the paying community. They're looking for alternatives. And TikTok has been amazing. Like people are on TikTok looking for this stuff and the algorithm has been really helpful. Well, not only did I find you and watch your TikTok and learn from it, you know, several more after that, but I reached out to you and I commented on your your post and you reached out to me and you messaged me. And I really, I can't express how grateful I am to you for kind of holding my hand and walking me through this. You showed me how to get access to your community of other creative users.

29:56 You spoke with me privately via our private e-mail tech, you know, giving me words of encouragement and sharing your vendor list and your years of experience. And I really am truly grateful to you for opening my eyes and and showing me this alternative. I hope I can do that for someone else. Oh, I have no doubt you will. I just can relate to people that you know were in your shoes. I was in those shoes and when I was dropped and trying to desperately find information, there wasn't as much information and TikTok was just not what it is now. So I luckily found a Facebook group that was helpful, but people weren't as forthcoming with like, being like a cheerleader, you know, messaging me and kind of, you know, because it's scary. You just don't know what to expect. You don't know, like in my case being dropped, I was worried about going through withdrawals because nine years, of course I'm going to have physical dependency on those medications. I was taking care of my elderly mom who's handicapped and I was thinking, you know, I got to be able to take care of her. What if I need somebody to take care of me because I'm going through withdrawals And that doesn't even address the pain that I will be having too, you know, not having access to my meds.

31:14 It was a very scary time. And so once I got figured out Kratom on my own, got to where I am today, I'm like anybody that I can help that is willing to listen to me. I want to be their cheerleader. I want to be able to provide information that I've already researched and they can take that and do what they want with it. I'm not preaching, I'm not forcing anything. I'm not a vendors, I'm not personally selling, but I'm also not afraid to share with people what vendors I personally buy my kratom from because that was something that people weren't really talking about when I first started. It was really hard for me to figure out where can I buy that kratom from a reputable vendor. That lab test and you did.

31:55 There's so many unknowns in the beginning, so I'm just always happy to help people with an answer any questions they have. So I really appreciate you being receptive to that and taking that leap because I know it's not easy. I remember how hard it was for me and look at where you're at now. It's just so amazing to hear. Well, I, like you said, I, I do feel, I'm also amazed that not only and I this, I guess if I get one thing across to someone, it's scary. Like you said, I was afraid of the effects of it. I was afraid it wasn't going to manage my withdrawal coming off years of opioids. And then even if it did that, how could it possibly manage my pain? And we've taken these medications for so long, we, we really think we cannot function without them. We can't take a walk with our dog. We can't play with our kids or grandchildren because we don't have this medication that we've had in our life for so many years.

32:56 So even if I can manage the withdrawal with this plant, there's no way I'm going to be able to manage the pain. And it does both. I promise you it will do both. If it's not helping enough, you're probably not taking enough. That's what I had to learn. I was under dosing myself for longer than I probably should have out of fear and not wanting to feel strange. Like you said that that study, they were taking 12 grams at a time. And I'm assuming those were opioid naive, just people off the street. If you're opioid tolerant, you're probably going to need a little more kratom. You're going to need to get through the withdrawal phase and that might take a week or two.

33:41 And then you're going to have to figure out what your pain dosage is and you might have to up it a little. But again, the great thing about upping your kratom dose, it's not like taking too many opioids as we've discussed, you're not going to stop breathing from it. I think the worst thing people do, it hasn't happened to me yet, but is get dizzy and vomit. Is that correct? Yeah, if you take too much kratom in a dose that the worst thing that happens is you throw up and then you feel better right afterwards. You just got to get it out of your system. You might get the WOB, what they call the wobbles, where you just feel kind of crappy. You got to lay down for a little bit. So the key is to not take too much. But so many people start off like what you said, under dosing because there's that fear.

34:26 You don't know what to expect. You don't want to feel weird. You don't want to feel loopy. You're not going to feel loopy from kratom. But so many people I've talked to, when they started, they would reach out to me and say, I just don't think this stuff works. I'm just not feeling it. And then I would come to find that their dose was really, really low. Now, I'm not a medical professional, so I can't tell somebody what to take, but I just share with my experience when the amount I took, when it didn't do anything, I took a little bit more and I just really worked on that, finding that perfect dose where I felt like I'm getting the pain relief I was looking for. So, so many times people have been so hesitant. And then when they try a little bit more, they're like, oh, oh, OK, I get it now. This is even better. Exactly.

35:08 And that's when I was telling you I'm not getting the pain relief. I'm really frustrated. And you said stay with it. Someone else recommended just try a little more. And again, I think it's important that we discussed the difference between opioid tolerant people and opioid naive people because my husband has tried the kratom. He's tried it for focus and clarity. And he takes a very small dose, I mean, barely a teaspoon. And he's he likes the white kratom and it helps clear his head. It helps him with a project. He does it once a day. If I took that little amount, it wouldn't do anything for me.

35:48 So again, he's the kind of person that if he takes the Benadryl, he's asleep for 12 hours. Then I think that's an important thing. If you're using this as a pain relief and you've been on opioids for years, you're probably going to have to have a little bit more. And I felt guilty taking more, like, am I abusing this or? And I I don't want people to feel that way. If you start out with 2G and you get up to 6g per dose, and I do recommend weighing it, it's OK. You're not a bad person for taking 5 or 6 grams of kratom if that's what helps you. I agree. The best advice that was for me and for so many others that have said to, you know, in them sharing their story with me is to listen to your body, let your body dictate.

36:36 Everybody's different. You know, it's a plant, so it's going to affect everybody differently. And like with you, I'm coming from years of, you know, pain management with these opioids. So I'm trying to avoid withdrawals and get pain relief. And it was a process. It took me several weeks that my main objective was to just not go into physical withdrawals, especially because of Oxycontin, gabapentin, Percocet. I I knew you know that I would probably feel something stopping those, but kratom really minimized all that for me. I, I think the most I had was hot flashes when I stopped the Oxycontin, but over time kratom worked better and better. I think as those opiates get out of your system, I think also you're figuring out your dose, but also with the opiates getting out of your system, kratom starts working better and better over time.

37:25 I could go longer between doses. I got to the point where instead of I would be dosing like every two to three, three to four hours. Then I got to the point where it's consistently months over period of months, 4 hours every four hours consistently. Then I was able to go to five hours. I've been at six hours. I dose every six hours. For years now, I've been at this dose and taking about 5 grams per dose and that's what works for me. I know people that take way less than me. I know people that take more than me. It's finding what works for you individually. I agree and I I don't for me, I had like I was afraid I was taking too much. I was afraid when I and I don't want a new person to feel that way. Like you said, start out with the less is more definitely, but if it's not working, try a little more. Try a little more.

38:13 Write everything down. That was so important. I'm still writing in my journal that you told me. I'm writing the times and the colors, and I'm also writing my pain scale. Not every time, but when I'm having a really bad day and I'm go, OK, it's 3:00 in the afternoon, My pain is like a 7 or 8 and I'm going to take 6 grams of red and then I'll go back couple hours later and write down my payment to three or four. And I have proof of that from keeping this journal. And that's like, I never had that kind of relief with the opioids. Yeah, that's amazing. I think keeping a journal is the smartest thing you can do when you're new to kratom. I did my journal for like a good eight or nine months. I did it for a really long time, probably longer than I needed to, but it made it so easy to refer back to it to see what was working, which one of these was working better, what dose, what color, what type, what vendor?

39:08 Maybe there's a vendor working better than another. It really, because it's easy to say, I'll remember in my mind, but many times we're dealing with life, think all kinds of things are happening, but to have it written down just makes it easier to look back and see what was working. So I'm so glad you did the journal. Tell me this try say so how long has your journey been now? I mean, I know you're very new. You're you're over a month. I could you know how many days it's been. I, I think in the beginning of February. So let's see, we're about two weeks and it's probably been six weeks. Wow. Six or seven weeks, and it feels like a different lifetime from going from the anxiety of going to the doctor every three months. Even though the doctors weren't kind to me and they weren't, you know, judgmental.

39:58 They started to get a little judgmental, but the nurses were kind. Reception was kind. And then anxiety of having to negotiate my pain medication for another three months. And then, OK, that's resolved. We're all on the same page. And then going to the pharmacy and, oh, we're out of stock. Oh, this. Call your doctor and see if they'll prescribe something else because that's on backward. To be rid of all that is like living another life and to have my pain managed better. And to feel happier and to be more active. It's just six weeks ago I was literally living a different life. That's just amazing how much has changed for you in six weeks. I can relate because I've been there. I don't miss the pharmacy dealing with that. Oh my gosh, always an issue with pharmacy. So what you were just saying I can so relate to. Yeah.

40:49 You know, pain management, it's like its own thing. You know, I felt I used to tell people it's like a part time job. Like there was just so much to it. Just having to keep going to the doctor so much having to make sure we're I'm on a plan that works for my pain. And there would be times where one of the meds I would just be building too much of A tolerance. We'd have to try different opioid and then is it going to work or is it not going to work? Is insurance going to cover? There were times where insurance insurance wouldn't cover one of the meds and we'd have to, you know, deal with that. And it was always an up and down thing. And then you add the pharmacy on top of it. I don't miss that at all. I feel like even though pain management was taken away from me, which nobody should be put in that position, I felt like through this whole experience, I got my life back.

41:37 I love the position I'm in now where I don't have to deal with all of that anymore and I'm taking charge of my own healthcare through a plant, which still just blows me away. So are you, So you're about six weeks and are you still going to your pain management doctor or what's going on with that now? I had an appointment scheduled for my regular three month appointment. I believe it was the beginning of January. I had it and I'm like, I don't need this. I don't need refills. I don't need to go to this doctor. I called and I left a message with the nurse who's always been super kind to me and very supportive.

42:20 And I just told her, I said, I'm calling to tell you I don't need to come in anymore. I'm off all opioids. I don't need to waste the doctor's time with pain management because it was just a medication appointment. I've done all the injections and ablations and those don't work and I'm not going to buy into that anymore. And I said I'm off the opioids, I don't need refills. I don't need to see the doctor. And I appreciate all you all have done for me. But please let doctor know that I won't be coming in anymore. And it was such a good feeling. I felt like you said I'm, I'm taking the control back and the power over my own healthcare and pain management.

43:04 I can take this plant when I want, how I want. It helps me so much better. And it was like kind of getting control of your life that. That is just so amazing. That must have just been an incredible feeling, leaving that message with the doctor's office, but nobody was interested. Like to learn more? Like call you back and be like what are you doing instead? No, they weren't, and that doesn't surprise me at all. What is a? Business, you know they are abuse. And they were kind of already getting the, not the nurses, but the doctor was already like, well, do you want to do more ablations or do you want to do more steroid injections? I'm like, no, I probably did a dozen of them over the years when I was trying to work with this damage. I would do anything so that I could function at work and none of it helped.

43:59 Maybe like a week or two. But they said, Oh yeah, this will last six months to a year. And I'm like, well, let's do that. It never lasted that long. Same with me. And and it was so painful. I mean, I remembered those epidurals that just into the nerves in your spinal cord is my legs would involuntarily twitch and I would like blurt out expletives because it was so painful. I'm like, I'm putting myself through excruciating pain to try to manage excruciating pain this and they're not. They didn't put you under anesthesia for the epidural steroid injections? They I've always had anesthesia for those so at least I was they gave. Me a little versette.

44:43 No, I'd be. I'd be completely knocked out with anesthesia. I've done about a dozen between the epidural steroid injections and those radio frequency ablations, and those ablations were even though I was under anesthesia for those two, that's a much more invasive procedure. So that was always more of a painful recovery every time I had those. Never. Anesthetized, just a little verset on board. Really. I excruciating. I can't even imagine. Wow. I've heard some stories where people said they were not on under anesthesia, but most people seem to be under anesthesia for that. I think it depends on the doctor and the facility. Wow, you've been through a lot. And that's, like, their big money maker anyway. So, like, that's how they make their money.

45:25 I never realized it when I was in it. I like you. Like, OK, if it helps, if you think it'll make me feel better. Sure. And the doctor would always say, yeah, you probably won't need as many prescriptions. You will probably be able to, you know, bring down the number of pills because you'll feel better. And I never felt better. I know it never worked. I always went along with it, but it never worked. Me too. Because you think, well, why would this doctor, you know, do anything that wasn't in my best interest? Yeah, good business. Well, I am just so thrilled you came on the podcast to Share your story. I know this will help other people, especially people that are brand new like you are. It is so hard to just take that leap and start because there's so much unknown and I'm so glad that you connected. You reached out to me.

46:11 I was, you know, more than happy to help you. So I'm so glad that you were receptive to chatting with me. I know we did lots of private messages and you joined our Kratom Real Talk community where not only could you also message me there, but so many other people in our community could. You would always be asking questions and always getting answers from the whole community, which is just nice. It's nice to hear people's first hand experience, you know that I'm also kratom consumer so I imagine that helped you a lot. It really did. And again, thank you so much for inviting me to this world, for educating me. So many of the members of the group were so supportive. Like you said, I'd I could just ask a question and not just get your valuable opinion, but I can get a dozen other people's opinion out. Maybe it didn't do this for you, but it did for him and it did for her, but not for him.

47:02 And it was so nice to have supportive people to talk to through this because no, people don't know about this. And that's what I'm hoping my, my story can help people go, well, it's not just one or two people. Maybe they're not all stink oil salesman. Maybe I I can help someone else achieve this freedom and really freedom from paying. Freedom from so much. It's amazing to find that there are millions of us in the US that consume kratom. I had no idea in the beginning, but yeah, there's like millions of kratom consumers. So it's it's pretty amazing. I know why now, yeah. Well, this has been such a great interview, Teresa.

47:44 Teresa, great. Thank you so much for joining. Normally I to end with the question, knowing everything you know now, what advice would you give to someone just starting out? But you pretty much have been answering that throughout this because you talked about keeping a journal about, you know, not being afraid to try a little bit more because many times where we are starting with less than what we should. Any other little tips as we close out for someone getting? Started definitely use don't go get it from the gas station. Don't take your pain medication and kratom. It's not going to work. If you're afraid it's not going to work and you're a pain patient, put your pain medication in another room or in a closet or something. Just put it away and try the kratom for two weeks. If it doesn't work, you have your pain pills you can go back to that's your little safety net. I had medication.

48:34 I still have it because I was I had wanted that safety net. I haven't touched it and six weeks or seven weeks, however long it's been, and I don't plan on it, but knowing it's there was my little, I don't know. It was my little safety net to know if this didn't work for me, I could go back to the old ways and I will never go back. That is such excellent advice for I said. Thank you so much for joining me and sharing your experience with Kratom to our community. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate you having me today. Thank you for listening. You can get more information at kratomstoriespodcast.com, including show notes from this episode.