Ep 65: Stephanie Sue's Story of Resilience and Recovery as a Kratom Industry Insider

0:00 Don't Google it. I honestly I googled it, you know some at 1st and it just not only that you'll get a lot of misinformation but you'll get a lot of contradicting information too and it becomes really confusing. I would go into the if you're going to do it like on Facebook or something, go into the private groups if you aren't sure where to go. There are tons of people on Facebook and TikTok. If you can, just look up public posts, but basically go to the stories and watch and read the posts of the people that are actually using it. Welcome to Kratom Stories, a weekly podcast where we share stories of how this amazing plant has changed our lives.

0:45 I'm your host, Madeleine Sklar. Each week I'll bring you a new episode featuring interviews with experts, advocates, and everyday people who've experienced the benefits of kratom first hand. Join me as we dive deeper into the world of this botanical wonder and discover the amazing stories behind this incredible plant. The Kratom Stories Podcast is presented solely for educational purposes. Neither the podcast nor its host promote or endorse the use of kratom, a substance not yet regulated or approved by the FDA. The views and opinions expressed by guests are theirs alone and do not necessarily reflect those of the host or the podcast. The content is not intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

1:28 Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified healthcare provider with any questions regarding the use of kratom. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to let you know about Kratom Real Talk. It's a new community for positive, uplifting discussions about the power of whole leaf kratom. If you'd like to be part of the conversation and learn more about this plate or contribute your knowledge, go to kratomrealtalk.com. So I'm here with Stephanie Sue today and she has such an interesting kratom story. Can't wait to hear all about it. Stephanie.

2:09 Stephanie Sue, thank you so much for doing this with me today. And, and coming on the podcast. We met through TikTok. I'm just so amazed at how many people, amazing people in our community I meet on TikTok. So I just hope it doesn't go away because I don't know what we're going to do if we don't have TikTok anymore. I know I was sad for those 14 hours. I know wasn't that terrible like we all felt we were going to like completely be gone. I mean, there's other social media platforms, but there's something about TikTok with the cradle community that we don't experience anywhere else. So I hope it stays around. But I'm glad you and I did connect on there. So I'm eager to hear your full story. I know a little bit about you, but I'm really eager for to learn more and have our guests learn about you.

2:54 So tell us a little bit about yourself and life before kratom. So I originally grew up on the East Coast. I've kind of gone back and forth between West Virginia and Virginia. Currently I'm in Virginia. I grew up kind of as like an only child. I have siblings, but I have actually five siblings, but all of them are half siblings and I've never actually lived with any of them. So I grew up as an only child wanting to kind of have the, you know, sibling connection that I never really got. And then as far as like growing up with my parents, they are both, it was a really difficult time with them. We did not grow up even middle class by any means. And they also had substance abuse issues and those kinds of things.

3:39 So I kind of grew up in a very chaotic world. And as you can imagine, growing up like that into my early 20s as when I started to kind of play around with substances I really shouldn't have been playing around with. So that's me before. It's really not that much either. It was like childhood, teenage, early 20s and then boom, addiction. And it was I, I mean, I knew that I was going to struggle with it. I just didn't know what substance that was going to be. How long were you in active addiction? I would say three years. It was late 2013 that I had tried my drug of choice, which was opiates. I tried that, not, you know, I had tried it before in the past because I had had, you know, like AC section with my daughter and but I never misused it.

4:27 So 2013, late 2013 is when I first misused it. And I would say I don't even really remember because it's such a fog. I don't remember my clean date. I just know it's 2016. Somewhere in 2016 I eventually stopped. Wow, so then how did you first hear about kratom? Well, that is the funniest thing because I was, I was working at a convenience store. I was a manager there, but I had a second job working at like a head shop, VAIT shop kind of kind of thing. And my manager there was actually at the VAIT shop was a good friend of mine who we used in active addiction together. However, when we were not able to find something, and this was like a good week or two where we were kind of in between pay days, we couldn't find anything. We couldn't really hustle around to find anything. And she told me about kratom and I played around with it. I didn't really use it correctly at first, but that is what first planted the seed in my head about kratom even exists. Something like that even exists.

5:30 And I didn't even really know the extent of what it could do or how it could help. It was just something that I played around with for a little bit and I actually didn't, even after that week or two, I didn't have much experience with kratom again until after I'd gotten clean. Gotcha, so when you were working in that head shop were y'all not selling kratom back then? No, actually, that's so funny that you asked that. I never, it did not even click in my mind. No, they weren't selling Kratom. They were selling, you know, like chillums and bongs. And I mean, they were, they were selling a little bit of vape stuff. This was like 2014 going into 2015. So vapes had just really gotten, you know. But honestly, when they sold whippets, they sold bagged tobacco.

6:13 I'm surprised they didn't sell Kratom, honestly. They really should have. But no, they didn't. It was something that she had ordered online for her mom, and she had some. And she was like, well, if you want to try this. And it didn't really do for me what I was looking for because I didn't really know how to use it. But it was just, you know, it was an idea like, oh, hey, there's something else out there that, you know, I could probably get away from the bad stuff with, you know? Yeah. So when you were first trying it, though, this first time around, there just wasn't a whole lot of knowledge about it. It was just something she said, hey, you could try this, but not really. And it was, of course, before it really was available in smoke shops at the level it is now. There wasn't as much information online back then.

6:53 So I could see where it's like, well what is this and how do you even use it properly? Yeah, well, the first time that I mixed it into a drink, I mixed it into something carbonated, and we all know not to do that. Right. So that was probably part of the problem. Were you doing the toss and wash? No, I, I didn't even really know what, I didn't know what to do with it. I was just mixing it in drinks and trying to drink it. And I was thinking, hey, if I mix it into a drink that I really like, maybe it won't taste as bad. And what that was was a carbonated drink, and then it got foamy and then it got wasted because I couldn't finish it. Yeah. Oh, I can imagine. I mean, I know some people do toss and wash with a soda and I'm like, well, first of all, I don't do toss and wash. It's just not for me.

7:35 I just do the swamp water. But I'm like, how can you do that with a soda? But I don't think I've ever heard of somebody mixing it, the powder into a soda and drinking it. I could see where that would be a mess, so and and not it. Definitely deterred me away for a good year or so after that. So did you just try it that one time and it was like, OK, this is not doing much? Well, it was like, I would say it was like maybe three times over the course of a week. I kept trying but it's I was just mixing it in a drink, you know, I tried the carbonated drink, it got foamy and then I tried probably like a non carbonated drink and it still just tasted horrible and I couldn't, I just didn't know what to do with it to get it palatable basically. Gotcha.

8:15 And during this time though you were still in active addiction, this was just something to try in between and in between paychecks. So and then Fast forward to you said a few more years later before you went back to trying it again. Yes, correct. So what made you decide to try again? I was actually, I was clean, but I was, I was kind of on the off end of like relapsing and then going a few weeks and then relapsing and then going a few weeks. So what it was is my husband and I had separated. We have since reconciled. We've been married for almost 15 years. But during this time, and I'm assuming it's because, you know, I was trying to get clean and stay clean. And honestly, anyone who's done that or had a loved one that does that, it's just a difficult time in general. So we had separated and I was dating somebody at the time and he had a friend who had kratom delivered to his house because his parents didn't want it being delivered to their house. And the person I was dating was like, Hey, I got to go take this kratom to my friend.

9:14 And I was like kratom, you know, I remember that. I was like, you think they'll let me have a little bit of that? And this, this friend of his had been, you know, using it for a little while. So he kind of got me to know what to do, how much to take and that kind of thing. And after that it was, it was on like it was, I was studying it, I was getting into the groups, I was looking up everything. It was great. And you probably said don't put it in soda, right? No. Well, actually he was the kind of kind of person where he would just like throw it back in his mouth and take a drink. Like this was like reverse toss and wash. I was like, I can't do all of that. So what I did is I did like a little bottle of juice, put it in there, shook it up and just chugged it really fast and had a chaser.

9:58 And I never really even thought of that before. But that's what and honestly, there's I've tried other ways of taking kratom like I can toss and wash, you know, I can do other things, capsules I can sometimes do, but that's actually my preferred way to take it now is to mix it up in some warm water and just have a chaser. Yeah, yeah, that's what I, I mean, I just heat up a little bit of warm water, add my powder, add in a little bit of juice, just enough something to drink it down. And that for me, that works great. You know, that's just been a great method. Can I give you a little bit of the science behind why that works so great? Sure, I'd love. To I think it's super interesting so I was actually looking this up. Have you ever heard of Red Bubble? Yes, I have.

10:39 Okay, so we all know that that's kind of like an at home way to make, you know, at home extract, which is basically you're just removing the plant matter away from the metrajeny. However, the reason why mixing it into some juice and warm water work so great is because one the warm water bloats the plant matter, but then also the citric acid within the juice is making the alkaloids within the kratom more soluble. So when you when you take kratom without mixing it in something like that, your body actually expels it before you get the full effects. What you're doing when you mix your Kratom in the juice and some warm water is you're already activating those alkaloids. So by the time that it gets into your body, they're already beginning to work. So you're getting those effects instead of waiting for the alkaloids to be broken down by your stomach acid. So I thought that was really cool. That makes perfect sense to me.

11:29 I've always found that kratom works really well when I use orange juice. So I know a lot of people were telling me in the beginning when I was researching like orange juice, like orange juice or lemon juice, some kind of citrus juice. And it's interesting how lemons, when I would do lemons, it didn't do anything for me, which was bizarre because people raved about lemons. But with orange juice works so well for me. And I was like so. But I know it varies from person to person as well. Yeah, I do lemon and lime juice, but what I do is I take the, it's not sweetened juice at all. It's like the juice that you would use in like baking and stuff. And I put that in with the powder and I slowly mix that in until it's like a pancake batter type consistency. I'll let it sit for a little bit if I'm not in a rush or anything.

12:10 Sometimes I'm in a rush though, and then I'll put the warm water in, mix that up and just shoot it back. Have a chaser. Chaser is usually like apple juice or something like that, but and within 10 minutes we're good to go. It's so quick now when you like. We're trying this this second time around, years later. Do you remember what year that was? That was 2016. I know that that was. I remember this because I was beginning to order from the same website that the guy that I was dating at the time, his friend was ordering from. And when you buy from the website, you put your e-mail in, so you get signed up for their e-mail letters. And that's when I realized that the DEA was working to try and ban kratom. I actually got that in an e-mail to sign the petition.

12:53 And in my mind, I was like, well, I don't want it to get banned. I'm going to go ahead and sign it thinking that it wouldn't make a difference. I think that's what a lot of us did that year. A lot of us that were following kratom, we thought, well, let's sign the petition. We don't want it banned, although we don't think it's going to make a difference. And it still did. It did. So that's why I've been so huge on kratom advocacy ever since then, because we make a difference. Even if you don't think you're going to in numbers, we make a difference. 100% and while I didn't discover kratom until 2019, learning about all those advocacy efforts in 2016, so many of us are grateful for what all you all did. Because it might not be here today, because, you know, people could have said, oh, this isn't going to help, why bother?

13:37 Why sign a petition? And it really shows the power of advocacy and that our voices do matter. And I think that's why there's so many of us that are loud, proud advocates in our community because we know everything matters. And that's why I do this podcast. I think we all have an interesting story to tell and people need to hear it. And I think it's just so important getting our message out there. So we're all so grateful for y'all that that came before us. That did a lot. Yeah. Because it's like, man, we might not have ever discovered it. People like me, Misty Brown and others that found it after all of that had happened. We're always saying how grateful we are for you all. I've never. Even thought about that, but that's true. A lot of the people that I am in touch with who are huge into advocacy now found it after the fact and I never even thought about that.

14:25 But it's, but The thing is, is a lot of us that were big into advocacy back in the day, we honestly, and I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with this, but you know, we went through the Facebook group. So this is, you know, before TikTok and everything and we had large groups taken down. So we kind of felt defeated for a little while. So the fact that you guys have kind of picked up on being loud and proud to where we could take a little bit of a mental health break and come back. We're grateful for that as well. That's awesome. Yeah, I've, I've definitely heard stories about how some of the advocates tickets from back then, you know, there was a lot of burnout. Y'all worked so hard. And I, I know Facebook has done a lot against our community with censorship, with taking sites down. When I, when I found Kratom in early 2019, I found a very large Facebook group and they were very helpful for answering questions for me and helping me learn about the plant before I actually started.

15:20 And then at one point it got taken down. Like it was like Facebook took the whole thing down. Like one day it was gone. It's like, wait a minute, this is my lifeline of learning about this plan as I start this journey. And it was so frustrating. But I've heard a lot of stories that Facebook, you know, had been doing it for years and making it very difficult. And here we are in 2025. And I'm sure you heard they took down the American Crane Association's Facebook page. They've not been able to get it back up. They've talked to the people at Meta and they're just not doing it. And they're making it so much harder for our advocacy efforts because we can't even search the word kratom on the search in Facebook. So we can't even find when different communities are taking legislative actions and possible bands right, making it so hard to advocate. Definitely, yeah.

16:08 And honestly, it was Facebook and Kratom and like all the knowledge that was on there was just the best until I want to say like late 2018 going into 2019, it was like everything flipped. I mean, we had had some issues in the past, but as long as we were changing up our spellings or not making medical claims or anything like that, or putting a disclaimer saying this is our personal experience, they seem to be OK with it. But something, I don't know what it was, but late 2018 going into 2019, it was like boom, take it away. And so we had to make everything private and there was this really, I don't know if this was the same group you were a part of, but there was a group, It was the largest kratom group that I knew of on Facebook.

16:49 It was called, well, when I first joined it, it was called kratom new and current users. Then it became an issue having kratom in the name. So then it was like new and current users. Well, then that became an issue and eventually it got down to the point where this large 30,000 people group, which is a large Facebook group, had to be called NACU. Nacu, which stood for new and current users. But people that are new aren't going to know that unless someone tells them. And it was just, there was so many. And that was actually the group that I had documented my pregnancy through because I was pregnant mid 2017 all the way up until February 2018. And it was, it was really cool. Like I would post updates about me, about the baby.

17:30 We even nicknamed my son baby Naku. Like it was great. And I think it was mid 2019 they had, they had already suspended that Group A couple of times, but they went through fix some things and it would come back up mid 2019. That group was permanently deleted. So all of my documentation, like my birth story, everything was just wiped. I and I didn't know that it was going to happen or I would have went and grabbed all that stuff. I mean, there was a secondary group where some of my stuff still is and I can grab a few things, but it's not, it's not the same, you know? Wow. Yeah, and you don't think that social media stuff's going to go away? Right. You know, just like we're still under threat with TikTok, it could still go away.

18:12 And there's a very good chance it could. And so many of us have put so much effort and have so many great videos helping people, kratom, and it could all just go away. It's very frustrating. Facebook and TikTok. And because of these restrictions on Facebook and TikTok is why a year ago, I started my own private online community separate from social medias called Kratom Real Talk. And so is kratomrealtalk.com is free. It's something that I set up. I've been teaching social media for like 20 years now. And I know a lot when it comes to ways of bringing people together in communities, in social media, but also separate from social media. And I realized like we got to have a place where we can go where you don't have a billionaire owning it and censoring us, where you don't have an algorithm controlling who sees what.

19:00 So I set this up kratomrealtalk.com and I keep it free. I pay for it, but because I pay for it, I have all the control. So there's no, there's no censoring. And I want to be free for everyone. And for me, it's, it's worth having a separate place we can go, not to take away from social media. Social media is very powerful. And it's because of that we met and so many people I've met in our community has been from social media. But just know that we have another place where we can hang out where like you could put your information in there like when documenting something and it's not going to go away. So. It might start transferring my stuff over. There as a matter of fact, it's giving me ideas like I have like a whole classroom section and I have like a whole bunch of information for people new to create them and we should talk about it separately from this where maybe we can get some of your information on kratom with pregnancy could probably help a lot of people and we could put some information on there in the classroom section.

19:55 I think that would you want to talk about that on the podcast. I mean, you know, every once in a while somebody will ask about kratom and pregnancy and. I know there's a Facebook group for it, although it might not be available now with everything happening at Facebook, but it's not something we hear about much. I do know of some people who use kratom during pregnancy, they had no issues at all, but people don't talk about it very much. And that's, I noticed that when I was going through my pregnancy and I think I took a big risk talking about it, but in my mind, and I'm still very comfortable talking about it. There was, you know, when I worked for the vendors, I've worked for two different vendors. I didn't talk about it as much just because I don't want to get them in trouble in some way. But as far as like me personally, even when people have personally attacked me for doing so, I know my body.

20:42 I know what I was having to use before I got pregnant and I just wasn't comfortable continuing using all those pharmaceuticals during my pregnancy. And so I chose some natural alternatives. And I mean, as far as like my experience goes, I had absolutely no issues. And honestly, my second pregnancy was so much easier than my first pregnancy. So just saying. Yeah, well, I I've heard from people that said that they did just fine with it and then they did not want to take pharmaceuticals, that this was a much better alternative. But then you hear stories of, oh, a baby born addicted to kratom, if you heard about that. I mean, we've seen that come up from time to time with these kratom hearings where they want to ban it. I have, but it's I'm a part of the Facebook. Well, one of the Facebook groups. There might be more, but I'm a part of one of the Facebook groups that is for mothers and pregnant women, you know, who are looking at using kratom or maybe even trying to stop it, you know, as they go into their pregnancy, whatever their choice is.

21:44 Now, that group has not accepted new members for a while because of all the Facebook stuff going on and everything. But if somebody would like to reach out to me because they have questions and they really need to get in, I can. I have been able to get a couple people into the group since they've stopped accepting new members. As long, as, you know, we know that they're real people and they're actually going through, you know, where they're not just somebody trying to infiltrate or anything like that. We can usually, you know, make sure that they get in and have those resources. But from my experience reading the stories about people who have had babies who have had issues after they use kratom, they did not entirely, only either one or two things. Either they didn't just use kratom or they got clean during their pregnancy and moved on to so there was other substances involved at first.

22:33 I've never seen somebody who has just chosen to use kratom during pregnancy that was lab tested, unadulterated, and had any issues at all. I haven't seen that personally. Right, and now these days we keep hearing about these seven OH, products that are incredibly potent. The researchers saying it's more like an opioid. And so I imagine if somebody who's pregnant is using those, that could be an issue when their baby is born. But they all view it as kratom. They think kratom is kratom is kratom and it's not. It's incredibly, it's frustrating because you got kratom powder, you got kratom extracts, and now these seven, OH, and they're all different. And the liquids too. I mean I've had I've had tons of experience with kratom but I have also had a few liquid extracts in the past that have kicked my butt and I don't think they need to be selling those as one serving at all.

23:23 Well yeah, it's crazy how most of them are multiple servings. Like they're these little bottles with like 3 servings. Some of them are 10 servings. I think if X tracks are are available to purchase, they should be single serving bottles. I agree minimum they should be that and that would really make us so that's not such a problem. But I've yet to talk to anybody who overused those extract a little bottles and said oh I did. I didn't like they all say the same thing. I didn't realize it was like not single serving. They say that they didn't realize or they say. They did. They did not because they said they don't. Read the bottle because. Because so many times they're like, I'm just slamming the whole thing and I like how I feel sense.

24:04 So now drink another one. Like it's like, yeah, but if you look at the bottle, did you ever notice it's multiple servings, right? And realize that many times it's a it's one that's three servings or 10 servings. And how? Because. Those of us that have experience with kratom, we know that there are vendors out there that will sell products that are, you know, considered more than one serving. But I think a lot of people that aren't in the kratom community online, whether it's TikTok, Facebook, maybe that I mean, they just don't think about that. And I could see how that could easily happen. Well, so many times I think you get people who are chasing something they hear about, like chasing a high, they hear about kratom. It's easy to access. Oh, let me just try this. And they're not educating themselves so they don't even know what it is.

24:46 And I can't tell you how many people are commenting in my TikTok saying, what about these 70? I don't like how this makes me feel. And I feel like I'm addicted to it. I'm like, well, it's technically not kratom and you need to stay away from those. And it's like, you need to learn what you know, learn about what you're consuming. But a lot of people just don't just consume whatever. And that's why I'm always putting out a ton of information. I want people to educate. I mean, I spent two months educating myself on kratom to learn about it before I actually took the plunge. I just want to make sure I understood what I was consuming. But a lot of people just dive right in. Yeah, I was one of those people, so I get it.

25:26 Yeah, yeah. And that's OK. It's just figuring out like how it can work for you, but it also effects everybody differently. True. You know, And like from your story, first time you tried it, didn't, you know, didn't really know what to do, didn't really do much. But great how the second time around, a few years later, it's been working so well for you. So going back to that, when it started working really well for you, like what benefits were you experiencing from using kratom, you know? I guess the easiest way to explain it was, well, first of all, I am a just straight up tired mom all the time, so I'm always looking for something that gives me energy. That's actually what kind of got me into the stuff that I shouldn't have been into to begin with. I tried out the opiates and weirdly enough, at first it energized me.

26:11 I mean further down the line that it didn't happen that way, but I was always looking for something that was energizing. So it did that, but it also helped my mood as well. And I had tried so many like antidepressants and anxiety medications and just mood altering substances prescribed to me and nothing had ever hit me like that before. And I'm not saying that it gets me like that every time now, but it was just, I think that's it was like the light bulb went off in my head. I was like, holy crap, I can be happy. And it just it because I was going through a really, really rough time at the at the time. So it was just, I think I would like to think that I attribute me getting through my separation and reconciling with my husband from finding kratom and finding what worked for me as far as using it and what kinds and all that.

27:03 Yeah, and how did it end up impacting your daily life and just your overall well-being? Well, I no longer cried before getting up and going to work. But the cool thing about it was is that I didn't dread like big, big tasks because I I deal with all I I have anxiety disorder like I am anxious all the time and kratom kind of helps me tackle tasks that without it, I'm usually like dreading or procrastinating or something like that. Now I will say this, it didn't have the most positive effect on my life as far as like outside it influences. I loved it. It was working great for me, great effects.

27:43 But then, you know, and I'm sure a lot of people go through this, once your family realizes that you're taking it, they want to Google it and Googling it is not always, you know, the first couple of things that come up are not always, you know, correct information. There's a lot of misinformation out there. So I was actually fighting and arguing with my father-in-law and my husband for a good year and a half to two years just to be able to use the plant. So like I was, it was great for me, but my family was very worried about it. And so it even got to the point where I had to go get like APO box because they didn't want it sent to the house and that kind of thing. Now they have sense, you know, it's much different now. I mean, I've worked in the industry before, I've gone to like trade shows and things like that.

28:26 They don't judge it at all anymore. But it definitely the first couple of years that was a an issue that we kind of had to navigate as well. Well, especially when there wasn't nearly as much information available about kratom back then and you had the government trying to ban it. You know, I'm sure that didn't help. But that all that was going on when you, like, rediscovered kratom that second time around, 'cause I'm sure Google, I couldn't imagine would be like Googling in 2016 with when you got the FDA and the CDC actively trying to ban it. Yeah, there. Was a lot of Scott Gottlieb stuff that popped. Up. Oh yeah, he was. You know, from what I've learned, he was very active on Twitter, anti freedom all over the place on Twitter with it back then. Wow.

29:09 It's amazing how much is the whole narrative has changed all these years later that people more and more people are using it in the US People see the benefits. They're telling people about how much this plant has changed their lives. And it's so interesting that the FDA, who's been so anti kratom for so long, I don't know if you heard this like a year ago they released some information, not to the public yet, but Kratom symposium. Last year they released information from a single dose study they did where they thought people were just going to like have severe reaction to kratom and the craziest thing they did was give people 12 grams in a 5 minute period of capsules. Kratom capsules 12 grams.

29:54 Of. In 5 minutes, which I think would make anybody make me throw up. The worst had happened were were a couple participants got nauseous like that was it and. Capsules, they don't break open all at once. Yeah, they're not even it's. That's not a very good study at all, you guys. No, and you're going to be nauseous from that many capsule shells. I mean, that would be yeah. You know, with kratom is a powder, right? So trying to imagine 12 grams of powder into capsules would be a lot of capsules. It's. Like a whole bag honestly of like a a small pack of that's like 24 capsules, right? Right, If they're half a gram, if they're half a gram each, that would it would be, it would that would be a lot. So it's like, I don't know what they were thinking, but they haven't formally published this study on their site yet. But when they I think they put it off for so long because once they do, they can't say that kratom kills, that creative is great because they did a study that shows it's not dangerous. Well, I think another reason why the general consensus on kratom is starting to shift as well is because those of us that are using it and have used it for a few years, people that know us, families, anybody that it's that surrounds us that does not use this plant is seeing that it's not having some crazy negative effect like they try to portray it as. So, you know, you've got, well, I mean, you started in 2019, so that's six years I started it.

31:19 Well, technically, I mean, I've found it in 2015, but let's say 26, that's nine years. And if it was as bad as they try to make it out to be, would we still be here? No, I don't think so. And they say that there's millions and millions of us in the US that consume it. So it's like, OK, if millions of us use it and it's dangerous, you would think there'd be 10s of thousands of deaths, right? I mean, that's that's still just taking a small because they think it's up to 20 million people in the US. So if you just take a tiny, tiny percentage, that would still be like what, 10,000 deaths a year easily maybe 20,000. And the most you hear is a few, but it's usually Poly drug use.

32:01 Yep, which is not just kratom, but with these seven OH products, like it could end up being more of an issue because those are so incredibly potent. And it's just so frustrating how like the the FDA is not they're not doing anything about those. They they're trying to portray it as similar to what we're already talking about that I agree as well. I think that it should be. We should really be spreading the awareness that that is not kratom. When I talk about kratom and me using Kratom, I'm meaning like pure unadulterated. And then I try to say unadulterated quite often because the seven OH products that's adulterated kratom right there, and that's just not something that I would want to promote.

32:45 Now I'm all right with like capsules, you know, that kind of thing or like flavored kratom powder. That's cool with me too. But seven OH is I've not tried it and I don't plan on trying it because I know from experience that I need to stay away from things like that. Well, and you got Doctor McCurdy, I'm sure you're familiar with him. He's one of the leading researchers in the world when it comes to crate up. And he, him and other researchers, Dr. Kirsten Smith, they've been sounding the alarm on 70 H, They have been studying it and they're telling us there are compounds in the 70 H products that they can't even identify. And that's scary. That's really scary. So people really need to avoid those products. But there's the smoke shops are pushing them. I mean, we've seen so many people in social media say the smoke shops are just pushing it on people to buy them.

33:31 The way that I see it, and this is just from me working in the industry, because I actually for one of the vendors that I worked for, I worked in the wholesale department and I was the wholesale sales specialist. So I actually dealt a lot with the head shops that were selling kratom. And The thing is, is a lot of these head shop owners don't realize what they're selling. All they know is that it's popular and it sells well and people come back for more. There's a lot of head shop and vape shop owners out there that don't really care about what they're selling to their customers as long as it makes them money. So my best advice is that if you are going to a head shop or a vape shop, because there are reputable companies that sell kratom and care about what they're selling to their customers. Just have a, a talk with the, you know, whether it's the owner or you know, the just the customer service Rep behind the counter there.

34:19 But just ask them a couple questions about the Kratom that they're selling. And at that point you can kind of get a feel for if they care or not. And if they seemingly don't care that I wouldn't purchase your kratom there honestly. Well, it's it's crazy how many people I've talked to on social media that say they bought it from a smoke shop and the person in the smoke shop didn't even know anything about kratom. They just point to it here. You ask, It's about kratom, they point to it. A few people have said that people were very knowledgeable at the smoke shops. Do you think that if any smoke shop that sells kratom, if they were just more educated and pass it along to consumers, that we wouldn't have as many issues with it? That people would understand the plan and respect it more instead of overusing it.

35:03 I do, and that's actually another thing that I wanted to talk about because as I was working with a lot of these head shop and vape shop owners, there was a couple people or a couple shops that did care and wanted to know more and what I would offer. And I would not charge for this at all. I mean, I worked for the company, but I wouldn't charge extra for this or anything, but I would offer them a Zoom training and if I was local, I would go in and do a demo. I, I actually did that in Florida a couple times that I would offer a zoom training any manager, any employee that they had could hop on. They could ask any questions that they needed or, and I would go through kind of like a kratom one O 1 like this is what kratom is. This is where it comes from. This is the colors. And you know, here's the common misinformation and then here's what we like to say as far as like a response to that. And I will say that the companies that did take me up on doing the zoom training, they became the kratom go to people in that area basically like they realized that this company cared about the product, wanted to know more about the product and actually would ask their customers, you know, does this do for you so that I can go back and talk to my company and order the right product for you?

36:15 That makes a huge difference. Wow, that's awesome that you did that for those companies and that you would offer to help and do that kind of training. That is amazing. And I'm sure they they got great benefits from that. And it's not surprising when you're saying that, you know, they became the go to for kratom in their communities. That's so great. I think we just need more of that, you know? I'm actually wearing one of their shirts right now. What does it say? It says friends. It's a shop in Illinois that I used to help out with, like ordering kratom. It's called friends in High places. I actually texted them before because I was trying to figure out like a shirt to wear that was kratom. But I didn't want to have like the vendor names from the vendors I worked at. I was like, well, I'll wear your shop shirt. I texted them.

36:58 I was like, I'm just so let you know you're going to see your shirt in the video. Awesome. That is so cool. Well, let's talk about your experience working for kratom vendors. We're not going to be naming names, but you in the past you have worked for two different kratom vendors. How did that all come about? So the first time it came about, it's so funny because I kind of put myself out there, took a little bit of a chance. I started working for the first kratom vendor that I worked for in April of 2018. My son was born in February of 2018. I really needed to work, but I didn't want to work in anything that I didn't have a passion for and I also needed to work from home. So I reached out to the company and they were actually fairly new online and I said, hey, you know, this is who I am. I sent him a couple of the links of the stuff that I had wrote online or, you know, videos I had made online. I said, this is what I do.

37:47 If you need any help as far as like just anything, you know, working, let me know. And so he actually got back to me within a couple of days and he was starting like an online call center. And so that's what I started doing is I started answering the phone, taking orders and answering questions. And then eventually he had like a chat that he had on his website. So we would answer questions there. And it just, it was perfect for me because I talked about kratom all day anyway. Might as well help people on doing so. You know, it was really good at first. I will say that. That's so cool. So I imagine that just was a cool job to have because you're a kratom consumer, you're obviously passionate, you're educated on it, passionate about it, and now you have a way to help educate more people through through the company that is so cool.

38:38 So what's it like working for kratom company? Seems like it'd be really cool. You know, for those of us that are consumers like, you know, something we that helps us tremendously. We love this product and to be able to work for a company that that's what they provide to the world. Well. I will say this, I enjoyed my entire tenure through working in the kratom industry. I met a lot of great people, Co workers, especially the customers, not just the wholesale customers, but I also met the retail customers, not in person but we talked online or over the phone and things like that and that was probably the absolute best part of the job. The only thing is I worked remote that entire time, so I wasn't working in, you know, I wasn't working in the warehouse or working in there where they did manufacturing or anything like that. And I feel like I probably would have liked that a lot more if I could actually go there and be there every day. But for the second kratom vendor that I worked for, I worked remote most of the time, but I did travel to their warehouse a few times and that was always really cool because you could see, you know, just the wall to wall kratom packages from Indonesia, you know, the plastic wrapped ones. We've all seen them online.

39:50 But just to see it in that capacity was really cool. And then just figure out, you know, the process of like importing it and then getting it bagged up and the just all of that that went into it was really fun to learn about. I had a really good time doing that. And it got to the point where we would sometimes film videos in the warehouse and that was always really cool too because people love the behind the scenes stuff. And I always, I loved it too. I was just as excited to be there as they would be to actually watch the video. Like it was a big deal to me too. So it was kind of cool to share the excitement. I love all that behind the scenes stuff and seeing it, you know, being manufactured and all when we do our Kratom gals live stream on Saturdays, whenever I come across some behind the scenes videos from a kratom company or manufacturer, especially the ones, well actually in Southeast Asia where you got the farmers picking it and then, you know, doing the manufacturing stuff before it gets shipped out to the US.

40:46 It's fascinating because we don't really think about this came from a leaf off of a tree halfway around the world. And it's so cool just seeing like how this all happens and how it comes here. And then you got the manufacturing company here and all the stuff they do before it ends up where you can actually purchase it. You get your bag of kratom. It is. It's really cool. Yeah. So let's go back up a little bit. When you're talking about as a kratom consumer, is this something you're consuming currently every day or how often are you consuming kratom? So when I worked in the industry, I would say it was pretty much every day. I mean, there were some days I would go in between, but I was busy reviewing things or doing live streams, talking about new products. So it was something that I took almost every day, not because I felt like I had to, but just because I worked in the industry and that was part of my job.

41:38 But ever since getting out of working in the industry, which I am still very much a fan of kratom, I'm a huge advocate. I'm never going to leave that part of the community, but I now work outside of the house and I'm in a completely different industry. So I have found that there are some days where I just don't even remember to take it. So I would say probably 4 days out of seven, I'll take it, but it's just not something that is like stuck on my brain all the time because I'm not working in the industry anymore. Right. And that makes perfect sense. Do you have a preference on red, green or white? Or did do all the different colors and strains work well on you? So I started out and it's always going to have a soft place in my heart is the white strains because you know, me and I, I'd love to have the energy, but I actually prefer greens more now. But I go through these body chemistry changes where sometimes whites don't work well for me and Reds work a little bit better.

42:33 So right now I'm kind of like in a green and red and white. So I'll either choose green or choose like a red and white right now. But I will say this, the red and white that I currently use is. You wouldn't be able to tell that there's red in it. Honestly, it feels more like just a really powerful white and I don't know how that works. I don't know how it happens, but basically anything that energizes me is where I'm at. Yeah, I just find it so interesting because we're all different with what we consume and what works on us. And like, whites just don't work well on me. They make me too jittery. But I know plenty of people that love the white kratom and that it works so well for them. But also, when I first started kratom, everybody said that I should start with red because I was. I suffer from chronic pain.

43:21 Everybody said, oh, red for pain, red for pain, but Reds don't really do much. For me. It was the green. But you have to, like, go through it to figure out what works. You know, you have to trial and error and figuring it out. So yeah, greens are my absolute favorite. I do really well with greens. But I always love asking this question when I do these interviews because I just find it fascinating how it really shows how individualized this plant is and how it affects everybody differently and how we all have different reasons for consuming it. And that kind of plays along with it as well. And it makes sense, you know, trying to get more energy out of it, you know, white strain would work really well, but then also doing really well with greens, too. Yeah, that's so cool. So also it sounds like over the years you've done a lot of advocacy for especially being when you were in the industry. Are you actively doing much advocacy on social media? Do you still talk about kratom much? I definitely do.

44:17 I have always made sure even after getting out of the industry because there was a lot of people. I used to do a when I worked for the last vendor I worked for in their group because they have a group on Facebook. I was doing like a weekly live stream and I was answering any questions that they had. Well, once I got out of the industry, everybody was very worried that they weren't going to have access to the that kind of information anymore. And I made sure everyone knew that they could reach out to me as far as like any kratom questions at all that they ever have. Now I can't answer, you know, specific vendor questions or if it's a product specific to that vendor, I might not be able to answer that. But any kratom questions at all, I'm always open to answering those. I will say this, there's I'm not quite as open to as much as I could say before after working in the industry, there are a lot of once you get out of the industry, there are a lot of things that sometimes you have to sign and you can't always talk about the details.

45:09 But I do as much advocacy as I can legally at the moment. So I'll make like kratom content on TikTok, like comedy or I'll even, you know, do like a kratom one O 1 type of video. I'm not as active as I used to be, but that will slowly pick back up. I'm just kind of letting some time pass before I get fully back into it. But I love that, you know, you've you've been a passionate advocate in the crime community for a long time and that even though you're not always actively consuming it, you're not working in the industry like you were before, but you still know the power of how advocacy helps the whole entire community. It's great that that you still do that in your social media. And you had mentioned to me before we started recording this about like kratom comedy stuff.

45:54 So tell us a little bit about what that is because I need to like learn more about what you are doing. So for example, like this is just an example, there was a trending sound on TikTok where the guy was like trying random flavors and then you hear him golf and he goes what the you know. And so I basically did a video of me drinking from a teacup and it was like first time tasting Kratom, you know, things like that. So I mean, you can love the plant, but you can also admit that it's not always the most palatable and you can turn it into jokes. And I think that not only kind of brings awareness to the plant, but also kind of helps people feel not, like, alone in what they're experiencing with the plant too. Because like, yeah, it's a great plant, but it doesn't taste great, and that's OK.

46:38 Yeah, we all pretty much agree it doesn't taste very good except for. Bud. Except for Bud. Bud loves his swamp water. I don't know when I watch him make his TikTok videos and he he drinks a big huge thing and I'm like how do you do that? I just want to drink a little bit really fast done and move on. But when you see him like fill up like a whole like water bottle full of kratom and water, and then it's like, Oh my gosh, that's a lot. Yeah. Yeah, which to me it's like, well, you'll taste it even more so. Yeah, you think he doesn't? He does. I saw him do it in person in Vegas last February and I was like, Oh my gosh, there's no cuts or anything.

47:18 He's really going. Yeah, I was with him and Misty Brown in Washington DC a year ago and we were all taking a break in between all the stuff we were doing. And funny enough, I was the only one that had kratom on them. It's like I was getting ready to take some kratom because what works for me with my chronic pain is to take kratom every six hours. That's what works for me. Everybody's different but so of course I'm going to have it on me. And when we're taking this break I'm coming up with my 6 hour marks on. And I remember Misty going you have kratom and her and Bud you have. I'm like, of course I do. So I'm like y'all want some? So her and Bud decided to make a video. So yeah, I watched them do their swamp water together and we filmed it and it was so funny because he's exactly the same in person as, as you know, since you've met him too, the same in person as you see on TikTok video. Absolutely.

48:06 Yeah. It was funny because as we left Vegas that week, we got to the airport at the end of the week and he lives on the East Coast too. So our flight back to our connecting flight, we had the same flight and so we just hung out for a little bit. Yeah, Cuz he, I think he lives in New York. I live in Virginia. So we were both flying back to the East Coast to get our connecting flights back home. That was. Funny seeing you here. That is so awesome. We just have so many cool people in our community and and I'm so glad that you came on to do this podcast with me. This has been such a great discussion. So the last question I have for you, knowing everything you know about and you know a lot because you've been in this industry for quite some time, what advice would you give to someone to help them get started in their own freedom journey? I would.

48:52 Say don't Google it. I honestly I googled it you know some at 1st and it just not only that you'll get a lot of misinformation, but you'll get a lot of contradicting information too and it becomes really confusing. I would go into the if you're going to do it like on Facebook or something, go into the private groups if you aren't sure where to go. There are tons of people on Facebook and TikTok. If you can just look up, you know, public posts, but basically go to the stories and watch and read the posts of the people that are actually using it. It's not always going to be rainbows and sunshine either. Like we give you the good, bad and the ugly, but it's information that you need to know that won't be as confusing. And then if you do have further questions about it there you go to the American Kratom Association website. They might not have their Facebook right now, but the American Kratom Association website is really great for, you know, it's got great kratom information, but it also lets you know like updates on what's happening with like the legislature as far as kratom goes, how you can help out with that.

49:58 But if you're trying to learn about it, definitely speak with, watch and read from people that have used it themselves because that's and it's not going to be the same story every time either. And that's what I think is going to help people figure out what if it will work for them and what types and what kinds will work for them as well. That's all such great advice. Thank you so much, Stephanie Sue for coming on the podcast and and sharing all of your great knowledge with us. Oh, I loved it. I talk about it all day anyway, so might as well hop on and share with other people too. That's so great, thank you for listening. You can get more information at kratomstoriespodcast.com, including show notes from this episode.