Ep 76: Kratom, Chronic Illness, and Losing Pain Management: How Deborah E. Took Control

0:00 On pain management, they have all the control they can control when I have the appointment, when I have the medicine, when I don't have the medicine, I can't move to another state because the timing of the appointments. I mean everything is controlled by them like 100%. And that used to the thought of that used to really bug me. Plus the whole thing of how they treat humans, if they even if you can even say it, how they treat humans because they don't treat humans like humans. So when you tell me about kratom, it was like, I mean, even if I'm still under pain management, it's this freedom because I can control the orders, I can pay for my own order. And OK, so it's nice that insurance pays for oxy. But The thing is with kratom, I manage my own kratom aspects. So it it allows me to feel free.

0:45 So even if I do have page management, I'm still free as a human being, whereas before I felt 100% controlled. I'm here with my good friend Deborah E, somebody I go back with for decades. And I've had you on the podcast quite some time ago and you came on and told your amazing story of how you discover kratom through me and got started and how amazing it's been for your chronic pain. And I thought it was time to bring you back, Deborah, to see what's going on with you now. Plus something you've been telling me, like lots have happened since, you know, you've been on the podcast last and things that could be really helpful for people that go to pain management that are like us that suffer from chronic pain issues.

1:35 I know you got lots to talk about. So thank you for coming back on the podcast to talk to us again. Sure thing. Thanks for having me. I wanted to come back to help anyone out there who is involved with pain management because I know I was using pain management. I think you were too mad before. Before Titom. Yeah, and I know that, you know, it's, it comes down to, hey, do you want to use Kratom instead of pain management? Do you want to continue to use pain management and not Kratom or do you want to use both or, you know, or neither, whatever. I mean, there's different options out there. But I don't think in my opinion, if you're going to use Kratom, you you shouldn't necessarily be forced to give up your pain management. I mean, that's a choice that each of us should be able to make on our own, what we're going to do.

2:18 And so I just, I already had pain management and was already seeing a nurse practitioner. So I thought, well, I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and I'll also take kratom. And I, it's not like I walked in and say, hey, nurse, nice to see you. And by the way, I'm taking Kratom because you don't want to rock the boat. I've learned enough in life that sometimes it's best just keep your mouth shut. Even though I have a hard time keep my mouth shut a lot of times. But anyway, that's what my husband says, but offer too much information. But I found out I'm trying to think when I when I told you about this, it was was it about four months ago it. Was a while back when you first were telling me? Yeah, yeah. I had a it was like I was at the end of an appointment with her name's Lisa. I'll just say Lisa, I don't think I'm divulging any information.

3:01 There's a lot of Lisas in the world, but that way we don't want to talk about. But Lisa was a nurse practitioner that would see me every time. And she I was about to head out of the office and she said, wait, I got to talk to you. And my husband was there. So he's like witnessing this conversation. And she sat down, she goes, you need to cut back a little bit on the Kratom. And I, I looked at her like, wait, you know, I take kratom. Like, how'd you know I take kratom? I didn't say anything, you know, I think. And, and so the only thing I can think of is, oh, my goodness, pain management is, you know, because you know, they do urine testing, right? They want to see if you're, you know, taking any. I was trying to think of bad drugs. Like now I can't think of any names like cocaine or any of the street drugs or any of that stuff out there, right?

3:42 But it's like you're testing for Kratom. You know, I, I didn't say it like that. I was trying to be really cool and whatever, But so my husband and I went home. We're talking about it's like, I can't believe. And that's when I wrote message to you, Matt. It's like, had you heard of this, that pain management is actually testing and not telling anyone, just actually testing it for now. The key thing, that's what she said is you need to cut back. I mean, that's a key thing. She didn't say you need to stop taking Kratom or, and she didn't ask me, are you taking Kratom? She said you need to cut back. And to me, that's that's a very important key differentiator between she didn't say stop. She just said you need to cut back. So I thought, OK, I'll cut back. So you had not said any, but up until this point you not mentioned to her that you consume kratom for your pain issues.

4:28 Nope, not at all. I mean. I never told you that. Like, of course, yes, they test. I mean, I went through that when I was in pain management, but they didn't tell you what exactly they were testing for, right? They didn't tell me at all. And so I did research. I, I mentioned, I think the first thing I did when I got home was I, I messaged you, I said to you, have you ever heard of this? Because I didn't, I mean, it kind of seems like a no doubt thing. Like, of course you could, you know, test for everything for is it Pika or, you know, like people eating cardboard or I don't know, I don't know if you test for that. But I mean, you know, whatever tests are out on the market or whatever people want to test for. So it's not that surprising that a test exists, but it just was surprising that they would test for it and not say anything. So I started doing research.

5:12 You know, it's like I'm always curious because I don't, I don't, for instance, I don't drink alcohol a lot, but it's not like I haven't ever had wine in my life. So I'm always looking up how long does wine stay in the body? So I make sure that when I'm going to an appointment with Lisa, I didn't just have wine 15 minutes before I'm going in for a pee test, you know, make sure all that's covered. And the other thing too is our state allows for marijuana and I'm not a pot smoker, but a friend of my daughter's gave me gummies one time And it's like, hey, that works for pain as well. Now this is before I'd heard of kratom. So I haven't had a pot gummy or whatever marijuana gummy or whatever you want to call them.

5:55 I'll just call them gummies because that's that's the only thing I ever tried in that department. But they don't work over or I haven't figured out what works, but it's not one of the things that was in my mainstay of solutions. But I thought it was cool that our state allowed it, allowed it for medical and and now recreational. So it was definitely something that was allowed. And when it was voted in to, which was quite a while ago, I thought that it should be allowed as far as pain management, but that was specifically on the contract. You know how you go into pain management, They give you a contract you have to sign. And so it says on there that you will not drink, you will not consume marijuana. Right. My, my paying contract said that I didn't say kratom, but that was also a long time ago. But I do remember like you will not consume marijuana, you will not sell your medications.

6:44 It was like a laundry list of things. And yours did not say kratom ever, right? No. It didn't, and that was the next time we went in to see Lisa. We just kind of casually, I'm a people pleader, so I don't want to like rock the boat. I just casually asked. It's like, hey, I've lost my copy. I didn't say lost it lie, but it's like, can I get a copy of the contract? And so we just grabbed it and you know, put in our files, quote UN quote, but we read it line by line. My husband read it like, I mean, those things are long, nothing in there on kratom and nothing in there and anything that could be somehow related to kratom. And again, she didn't said stop. She just took cut back and from what I read, it was like 9 to 11 days that it can show up. So I very carefully and remember in the earlier interviews on the podcast here I was talking, the concern was gabapentin, yes, that I could not take gabapentin or at least I could not take too much gabapentin because it would cause a seizure. Well, Lisa liked to prescribe gabapentin as A and I kept telling her this causes seizures. I can't take this.

7:43 So I mean, I got a long time without gabapentin and I think I'd gone, What did I tell you, Matt? Like 3 years without a seizure I'd done. Really. Well, a while. No seizures. And I mean, I'd taken gabapentin like a pill here, a pill there, whatever. I mean, they, they work on pain, but at the point where the gabapentin's really working well in pain is about two minutes before I go into a seizure. So it's definitely, I mean, I'm looking at the clock. If I take the gabapentin, I'm being super, super, super careful. But now we're in a situation I can't drink because that's on the contract. I can't take or I'm not supposed to take kratom for 11 days before the appointment with the doctor. The gabapentin causes seizures.

8:23 Anyone who has taken any kind of like first grade math, well, maybe not first grade math, but you know, you, you take courses in school about drugs. Doesn't even have to be well, you, you learn about tolerance. And so it, you just can't make it, unlike oxy the whole month where you're going to get to a point where there's just an epoxy. So you need something else to supplement. And that's what I was using the Kratom for. And other people might be using gabapentin. I can't use gabapentin. So no alcohol, no gabapentin, no kratom, basically nothing. I was desperate, so I used the gabapentin. I walk into the doctor's office. I hadn't even gone back to meet with Lisa.

9:04 I had no kratom in my system because I was being a good girl. And I'd stayed off kratom for 11 days. I'd had kratom before then, but I'd stayed off for 11 days to make sure. My P test showed up negative and I had a seizure right in the lobby from all the gabapentin I took because I was following directions. I was doing what I was supposed to do for the doctor. So they basically cancelled my appointment and I went home. I kind of wish I'd done P tests. I wish I'd seen that. There was no alcohol, no cradlers, nothing. I was a good girl. And exactly, exactly. And so then I went in the next time and they cancelled me. They hadn't called me and sent me a letter then texted me they hadn't all these things that I mean, they normally texted me.

9:48 They actually very commutative office, nothing. They just cancelled me and I was going to get a hold of a lawyer because it's like, you know, remember how I mentioned to you that oxy actually was helping with the blood sugar? I don't know why. I have no idea why it, but it actually helped balance my blood sugars. It was a very nice side effect to the oxy. But what is it called? I looked it up. I think it's patient abandonment. It's something that I could have brought up with the lawyer that not only is this affecting the pain management, but now I've got to redo all of the diabetic aspects because it's like you're messing with a chemistry set here by removing the oxy.

10:30 Now my blood sugars are all out of whack because there's this piece that's not there and she could have at least warned me so I could have worked with this, but she gave no warning whatsoever. She just drop me. It's like dropping an egg on a, you know, on pavement. That was it. You know, first of all, the medical establishment has really failed everybody in every way. But then you look at those of us with chronic pain that go to pain management and it's crazy the stories we hear of, of what they're doing to people, that this affects your life and for them to just abruptly drop you and not communicate.

11:10 And, you know, I, when I was dropped from pain management, you know, I followed all the rules, never got in trouble, had a great relationship with the doctor. And yeah, they're scared to prescribe. They want to not get in trouble. You know, the government's been so strict. There's been a lot of policies over the years that dictate that come from policy makers, not medical professionals, but that they have to follow and nobody pays attention to like what this does to us as people that are now not getting the care we need. Exactly. We're not going to just go. We're going because we suffer from one or more things that needs intervention so that we can try to live a, a normal life. Exactly.

11:56 I, I and I had a great relationship to like, and they used to communicate so well until I get a form letter in the mail one day that, you know, they're not going to prescribe anymore because they're not going to do this. And I can't imagine, you know, I can kind of imagine what you went through because I mean, I went through it, but like you just don't expect that to happen to you. So I, I'm just, I'm so sorry to hear this happened to you, Deb, because no one, no one should go through that. If anything, you should be able to fire your pain management doctor. You know, you know, you know, if you're able to find ways to manage your pain without that intervention, which I was able to do, not everybody can.

12:37 And I totally understand that. We have plenty of people in our community that kind of juggle and they take kratom like you take kratom and they they're still in pain management and they still get the opiates and they have a system that works for them. In my case, I lost access. No other doctor would take over. So I'm thinking, OK, I got to find something that will 100% take care of my chronic pain issues so I don't have to worry anymore about pharmaceuticals, which I didn't think would be possible. But for me, kratom works far better than all the pharmaceuticals. But you know, everybody's different. It's a plant. It effects everybody differently. And so I what I believe in is finding what works for you and what works for you may not work for me and vice versa.

13:19 So what, what did you do like when this all happened? You contact a lawyer. They're like, what, what do you do next? What are you supposed to do? I started looking. For a lawyer after you're out of shock. I I, you know, I was in the Michael's driving, so I started looking for a lawyer right away, you know, and on the phone, everything what you can see, I thought, OK, when I get home, I'm calling Matt. You know, actually I think I messaged you in the school app right from the right from the car. And it's like, OK, are you available to talk today? I think that was the message I sent you. It's like, but I thought there's got to be a lawyer that will take this on because it was, it was more, it's like the timing. You cannot leave a person in a lurch like this when they they need help. And it isn't even about pain.

14:03 It's just there's other, there's all these other facets like what you said, Madeline. And I don't think they like, I like how you said policy makers. I don't think they realized the health thing like I've told people they do. I have never ever gotten a quote UN quote high from oxy. Same. It's all it's only a pain relief and it's not even 100% pain relief. It's exactly enough to exist, you know, and it's like, guys, come on. I'm just trying to live somewhat of a normal life. That's it. I'm not, I'm, I want to be able to sit in my chair and do stuff on the computer without dying, or I mean dying literally, but I mean, otherwise I'm, I'm wiggling and I'm because it's like this pain. If it's so bad, I can't get anything done and I just want to be able to get something done in life. But so I'm in the car and I couldn't believe it because my husband's not overly, he's not against it, but I'm more likely the one that say, hey, let's go check out the pie shop. I don't do that.

14:54 We don't go visit that that often. But he, I think he suggested it because he was kind of, he was really upset with them, the way they handled it. And what I really noticed it wasn't about the absence of the pain management. It was about how I felt as a person. I literally felt like dog Doo Doo in the bottom of the shoe and that they didn't even have the decency to treat me like a human being. And I think that's what really bothered me was I didn't feel like a human being. So this what was it called? The reefer store or something like that, whatever. It was like 2 blocks away. We could have practically walked there and we're driving in our, in our black Jag, which looks like you have enough money to go spend at the pot shop, you know, So we, we drive over there and we, we walk in.

15:39 I'm sure that's not why they're treating us. That's nice. We walk in and Oh my goodness, it's like my husband said, well, it's because they're high. But no, I'm not saying that, but it's like they treat you like you're a valuable human being, like you matter like you. I mean, you matter because you're human, because you're flesh and blood. And it's, it was. I can't believe the contrast between coming from a place where my husband nicely said to him, he says we're going to have to contact our lawyers. He didn't say it threateningly. He just said, we're going to, we're going to show the, the contract and we'll get back to you to this other store where they just like, it's not like they were insistent we spend money. They were just nice people. I thought that's the way that's the way the world should be is at this other store where people are nice to people, not the way they are in management. So I'm like, I don't think I want to go back to pain management.

16:30 I think I want to hang out over here because these people are nice to me. They treat me nicely because I, I realized then that I'd always for what is it? I'd gone to the pain management place since 2015. So 10 years I've been going to this gal and I'd every single time I've been scared. It's like, what if they kicked me off what they, you know, and after I'd heard your story, Matt, I kept thinking they could kick me off. And so I'd always been prepared for kratom only. But and I'm really glad that kratom works for you. I am for me, for me. It's like I have to switch halfway through the month, like whatever I'm taking, it starts to not work. And so it works really well for me to do oxy for half the month and then kratom for half the month or just do every other week. That works really well for me to switch between the two, produce some kind of mixed approach. Otherwise, I tend to have a little, It's like I become resistant even to kratom.

17:17 So it works well to have both. But I made an appointment with I don't know what you call them. I don't think you'd call him pot doctor. I'm trying to be respectful. I gave her name, but I didn't ask permission. And very nice lady. But I thought I'd better find a doctor because that actually is quite a price savings than on the marijuana. So we, we bought some gummies, gave me some really good sleep and some pain relief. That was nice. And I made an appointment to be able and I got the card the whole thing and I was, it was nice to find out it's not a sham or anything. It's not like you go up to the the doctor and to say, I need this, they say, OK, no problem. I mean, you do have to jump through all the hoops and I probably had five different reasons to qualify for medical cards.

18:03 So and it was, it was pretty easy to do it over the phone. I'm just saying this in case anyone needs that in addition to their kratom. It's, it's pretty easy to do a telemed. And when you say that to someone, I think they think, oh, then that means it's a, it's a sham. It's not real. It's not. But I didn't find it a sham. She asked me more questions than regular doctors ask and I had to fill out all, all of the medical history and the online. I would say that they're, they're definitely a 2025 or you know, 2025 record type process and they're really with the times and with the state and they're, they're checking everything. She asked for permission to check my medical history with my primary doctor, everything.

18:45 So it might go by really quickly as far as how you do that over the phone with the doctor. But to me, it's what all the rest of the doctors should have been doing 20 years ago as far as efficiency. So if anyone wants to do that in addition to what they're doing with kratom or pain management, the experience I had was pretty positive. It's not like this sham. So that's one thing. But here is the really, really ready for it. This is the really good news. I made an appointment at another pain management center. I thought, well, this probably isn't going to work. But we, you know, we got to knock them off one at a time, go someplace. And I went in and my husband's like, we shouldn't have gone to that reefer store last night. He goes, they're going to do a pee test and you're like loaded with marijuana.

19:31 I said, well, I made an appointment for next week and it's like, what is it marijuana? I think it can show up like in your hair follicles for several months and whatever. And I thought, I'll just explain to them that, look, I needed a solution. I, you know, I use gummies and I promise I won't use gummies anymore. I didn't before. So I'll be a good girl, you know, the whole thing. And so I was prepared my whole speech to them. I'll sign a contract. I won't drink. I won't use marijuana. You're going to find both in my pee right now because I had pain and I had to do something. But I will be a good girl and I won't do that. And then I was like, what's going to happen with the kratom? Well, anyway, we get in there. We're talking to this gal. Her name is Keiko. She's really nice. She's from, you know, Southern California. That always helps.

20:17 And. And right before and she goes, oh, did we not tell you? Well, you know, since since marijuana is legal, we don't have any problem. If you use marijuana, we figure, hey, you're not going to the worst you're going to do is throw up from it. Your body's going to tell you, it's not like you're going to die from it, so you're fine. It's legal in the state. So why would we have a problem with it? And I look at her and I go, finally someone who has common sense. If the state doesn't have an issue with you with marijuana, why should pain management? And she goes, same thing with kratom. Why would we have an issue with you? It's not illegal, so why are we going to complain? I'm thinking, wow, why is it that this pain management has common sense but other pain management doesn't?

21:02 Good question. I mean, I, I, I don't know. I, I know that plenty of people in the medical community have gotten misinformation and propaganda that, you know, caused them to form a very negative opinion about kratom, sadly. But a lot of medical professionals don't even know what it is. And that's what I always run into. I wasn't comfortable mentioning it the first few years. I mean, I've been using Kratom for over six years, about 6 1/2 years now. And in the beginning it's it's still. And when you come from pain management, as you know, you still feel like you can't openly talk about it because. People feel. Like oh, hold on, friend, let me go pop in Oxycontin real quick before we go, you know, like that's not part of my conversation ever, right? You know, because pharmaceutical, especially opioids have been demonized so much for decades and decades with kratom.

21:56 I just always like, are people going to demonize me for using this? So I was a little quiet in the beginning when it came to telemedical professionals, but over time, I got more comfortable and felt like for me personally, I feel like it's my duty to talk about it with medical professionals because if anything, I can help educate them. And so that's what I've been doing, rarely come across. So I did go to a doctor earlier this year and the guy's like, Oh yeah, I've heard of kratom. That's great. And I'm like, whoa. But I'm usually like educating the doctor or nurse or whoever. I'm I what I actually do any doctor appointment for anything at all when you have to list your medications, I I write down, I pick kratom. Yeah, I do.

22:39 I'm. Trying to think if I list you. I don't think I have been, but that's a good idea. Yeah, I do that. So you know, when you do that, you know they're going to read. You sit down with the nurse when you first go and they're going to read all. Are you still taking all that? And she's reading the list. And it's just so funny when they go and kratom I go yes. And it kind of depends on the vibe. If they're like really easy going, laid back and talkative, I'll say yes. And by the way, I use that for my chronic pain. I don't Philippians anymore. It kind it just depends on the vibe. If they're rushing or they just seem really grumpy, then I I just say yes, great. But I like being able to spark dialogue because I feel like I can try to educate them a bit. And several of them have been like, wow, that's really interesting. That's cool, good, good for you.

23:24 You know that you found an alternative, but I've also heard a lot of horror stories where people try doing that and their doctors were like, no, I will not treat you if you use that, that stuff's garbage, blah, blah, blah. And, and I, I hate when people go through that because nobody should for me personally, I'm, and this is not for something anybody else has to do. But if I went to a doctor and they said, no, you cannot take that, I will not treat you, then I'm like, see ya, I'm not going to why? Why I can fire you. This is not a one way street. So I, there's no way to tolerate that. But everybody's different and I know that everybody's comfortable. We've had a lot of conversations about this on the school platform and are creating real talk as well as on TikTok. And it really boils down to what you're comfortable doing. And I'm just very comfortable doing it. And I feel like that's part of my advocacy to help educate people in the medical community and hopefully provide them with good, accurate information so that they did get propaganda or misinformation.

24:23 I can be that catalyst to help turn that around. And anytime I talk to someone in the medical community or science base, if they're not familiar with it, I always tell them go to kratomanswers.org. And it's a great website the AKA has put together, American Kratom Association put out that talks about the science about the plant. I send people to your site. I have lots of resources. Plus who doesn't want to listen to stories from real people with exactly hearing your personal experience? And so, yeah, I, I think, you know, my website's a great resource, but I think as consumers, for those that are comfortable, I, I feel, I feel like it's our duty to try.

25:06 We need basically, I have a video about this on TikTok. I'll have to go find it and put in the show notes. I think is part of normalizing the plan. If we're going to be quiet about it, then we're not going to get progress and it's going to be in a negative light and then people are going to talk bad about it. But if we can normalize it to the medical community and elsewhere, I think it can have a bigger impact. And, and what I think because I've been open about it, especially my primary care physician and she's learning a lot about it from me. I know there's going to come in time, whether it's a TV story and on the news negative or somebody saying something and she's going to go, oh, I know about kratom.

25:51 I have a patient who I've seen for years now and she does great. Every time I see her I'm so impressed. And she used to take all these opiates. It's in her chart that I'm reading. I can see everything she used to take. She doesn't take it anymore. She just uses a plan. So she's already been educated from me. So when that's all. Step isn't step forward. It all adds up. Exactly. So, you know, the next time some kind of misinformation or propaganda comes her way, she already knows how great this has been for one of her patients. And I think I for me personally, I think that's just so important. But I'm not to say anybody else needs to do it is what you're comfortable. But I really feel like we can make change.

26:33 We can make a difference. What is that? Is that hair commercial that says and she tells someone and or he tells? Someone and sell one. And yeah, and it's like kind of like that. And I like how you say if you're comfortable, because I, I think I didn't used to be comfortable. Like I mentioned something to my father about kratom and he's like, Oh no, that's bad. Or well, as long as you're not doing that, What is it that marijuana thing? And I thought, oh man, you know. And so I didn't, I didn't say anything to him that I Oh yeah. Dad, I tried gummies 2 years ago. I mean, this is a couple years ago. I talked to him, but it was like, wow, we just won't talk about any of that stuff with dad, you know, that kind of thing. But and there's other people like that. But I think that got me being more quiet for a while. But then after this experience got me rethinking. I thought, you know, there's so many people that judge me like, OK, I love my son dearly, but I think he called me a drug addict when I was taking oxy.

27:20 And it's like, I'm not a drug addict. And it it's about figuring out who you are as a person. I love Madeline that you said that, you know, it's like you fire the doctor as far as if they're not going to treat you because you take kratom, then, you know, sayonara, goodbye. I don't, I don't need you in your life because I didn't like that feeling that I had as far as feeling subhuman by Lisa that, that, you know, even if she's going to cancel me, can you not have the decency to say, Hey, it's been nice knowing you have a nice life. I mean, can you not just just talk like a human being? But no, I didn't deserve that. It's like, no, no, no, no, that's not how I want to live my life. That's not how I want to feel. So it's, it's reinforced that part where I think I'm finally getting closer where you're at as far as I was admitting it more publicly and even doing these podcast episodes where it's like having these on on my site and so forth.

28:09 And I was never ashamed, by the way, never ashamed at all doing podcast episodes. But I mean, it was like, do I want my my dad to see this, that I'm admitting that, you know, that I had a pot gummy, you know, like, you know, that kind of thing. But it's like I can't go around being a people pleaser and trying to be like two different people. I am who I am. The oxy helped my diabetes. I wasn't, you know, all this, this whole list of stuff, my health, it's my health. And I like to be healthy. And I'm not going to go live a certain way because when I tried to live the way the doctor wanted me to live, I had a seizure in her lobby. And right there I should find a lawyer and sue her because actually the seizure was her fault. At least 99.9% it was her fault. I was doing what she directed me to do. I started to get dropped because of that, even though you're following her rules that she was doing. It's just terrible you had to go through all that. Let's back up for a moment.

29:04 Tell everybody a little bit about you guys say haven't heard your, your first time on the podcast and you sharing your your, your journey, you know, before Kratom and then during and, and, and discovering it. Just briefly tell everybody a little bit about your health issues that you've been dealing with and how long and how you discover Kratom and kind of like kind of give us a little back story. Oh wow. And like, what was it? We were. I was on the your Twitter smarter, wasn't it? They was hanging out there and you mentioned something about kratom. Yeah. And the pain is like. A couple years ago solution. Yeah, that was, it was a while ago. I could not believe that there was something out there, another solution, because I was still struggling with this whole gabapentin oxy thing.

29:49 And I mean all this stuff with Lisa back then and trying to find something. Because you mean you can't just keep taking a pill that causes seizures and that it, it's like a really bad chemistry concoction that you're trying not to blow up the house. So, and I was having, what was it 2 to three, one to three seizures a month. So I was at 120 seizures and I needed a solution. And then you come on and you say something about this kratom. I never heard of kratom. I started doing research and what was it? Within a week I'd already made a purchase and and transit. I was doing like, you know, I have my whole separate business life outside of the podcast called, you know, my Madeline Sklar stuff.

30:29 And yeah, I've been hosting online chats for many years. And it was what it was my Twitter smarter, my old chat and we were in spaces, the audio live audio chat and I, I was starting, I was getting ready. I was, I think I just started a podcast where I was about to and I just was trying to weave in some of that into my business conversations, which I had not done before. I always kept it all separate. But since I was launching the podcast and I'm being more open publicly in my business because normally like you don't talk about personal stuff in business, right? Some do, but it just depends on what you're comfortable. So I thought. And so I just remember I casually mentioned it towards the end of that Spaces chat and you were there that day and you did not tell me that like.

31:14 Oh boy. I think about a week went by and then you contacted me. You said, Oh my gosh, Madeline, I researched it after you talked about it. I went and bought some and I tried it and Oh my gosh, it's the best thing ever. And I was like, whoa, well, awesome. I'm so glad you know, that that sparked you, you know, learning more about it and, and, and giving it a go because I mean you and. What are your recommendations? Was my friend Wade. Yeah, who you knew who you knew. So that was yeah, the Kratom family. So that's, that's a a vendor I've known for quite a while. He was on my list of recommended vendors. And you knew him from before and it's like, oh, and I think you'd called and talked to his wife and, and got information and was able to order.

32:00 And what kind of health issues do you suffer from where you know you're going to pain management and that Kratom is able to help you as well? I have chronic pain. No one's ever been able to identify what it is. It's funny when you look at my record, my medical record, it's like start out with chronic leg pain, but they have no definition. And then another one that says back pain because I had back pain at one point. I mean, I've had so many different pain things. They don't have one, one definition of what the issue is, but I personally think it's from the diabetes. I mean, when you what was that? When I was interviewed for a diabetic podcast, my friend said, well, he's my friend 'cause I just met him at the podcast. And now we, we talk because we're both T wonders if you will type 1. And he said, Deb, you were diagnosed during the dark ages because it was in the 70s.

32:45 And that's a good point. If you're, you know, if you're diagnosed with type 1 diabetes, like now there's so much technology like I'll, I'll share 'cause he's, he's well, if he's got tied up or she or whatever gender I decide to bequeath little pumpy today. But like I have this, this pump and I've had well, not this pump, but a pump from Medtronic since 1998, which is a long time. But considering I was diagnosed in 76, that's 76 to 98 is a long time to not have that kind of technology. So you're just taking shots, which means your blood sugar isn't a blood sugar. It's actually you're testing urine two hours after whatever your blood sugar is. So you find out two hours later what it was two hours ago.

33:27 Oh my God. And then, and then you're treating it and you know, hopefully six hours after you ate the doughnut, which you shouldn't eat a doughnut, but you know what I mean? It's like you're finding out what it is and then you're trying to take insulin that's taking effect 8 hours after. I mean, it's everything is like so far after what's happening and you're having to have this rigid. The type of management is preventative if you're lucky. So all of that to say that everything for that first 20 years or at least first ten years of my type 1 diagnosis, that's what I'm paying for now in pain. Wow. So I don't know if they know what it like. I told the doctor that endocrinologist, I said I think this is nerve pain from the diabetes. He says no, that would just be no feeling at all.

34:09 I said, well, you know what? I'm not a doctor. I don't know what it is. All I know is whatever pain I had when I was 6, when I was diagnosed with diabetes and had really high blood sugar and that pain that I had, that's the pain I have all the time. And it makes sense when you've had diabetes for 50 years. Yeah. OK. The nerve it, it just kind of makes logical sense to me that the nerve endings are kind of fried, you know, So that just kind of hurts. It started out in the leg and now it's just throughout the whole body. It hurts. And it might be something else. I don't know. Maybe the new pain management place will help me identify what it is, But it just hurts all the time. So that so the type 1 diabetes, the chronic pain, the I got a weird family. So there's also post traumatic stress disorder. I almost laughed cause like let's see let's collect, let's let's play life trivia or something and see how many cards we can collect on issues that are happening. But and then also epilepsy.

35:03 I've always had seizures but I thought they were related to type one. But then I was just diagnosed. What was that? I was talking to you about that. I think that was like 3 years ago. That's a newer diagnosis, but it's probably something I've had since I was a little kid. I fell out of a buggy and hit my head when I was 18 months old. So the question is, did I have epilepsy and I fell out of the buggy because of that or did I hit my head and develop epilepsy because of that? So it kind of makes you wonder, you know, which came first, the what is it the, or the egg or the chicken or the egg? That's a good the chicken or the egg or the horse or whatever the whatever that saying is. But so yeah, there's like 3 or 4 chronic illnesses that that's what gets it really tricky with all of these medicines and trying to make sure you.

35:47 Jump the right. Thing, like I said, a chemistry kit that you're not mixing the wrong thing at the wrong time. And when you talk about like policy makers versus doctors, it's like, come on, doctor, you want to kind of say, I don't mean shaking, but it's like, will you please listen? Because all this is, it's about timing. It's about what are like, for instance, I'm really susceptible to, I'm not suicidal, but I am susceptible to any medicines that have suicidal ideation. So if that's if the drug has that, I don't take it because it's going to trigger something. So it's like, do not take that. But I've met doctors that it's like they don't care. It's like, why are you or, or the what is it the brain? I always the blood brain barrier thing. Whatever one of one of the doctors gave me that one and it was like, Hey, I have seizures.

36:36 You don't give me something that crosses that barrier because it's going to put you right into a seizure. And it almost did. And you kind of want to say, like in our healthcare system, why are doctors not paying attention? Why are we supposed supposed to be our own doctors? Although that is a recommendation. Advocate for yourself. Yes, absolutely. It's, I think it's important more than ever, you know, because doctor, you know, with doctors, it's just the medical industry has changed so much, you know, and you got corporations that have bought out doctor's offices. So the doctor's just an employee and it's about how many appointments can they do in a day and it's. All about. You know, it's, it's not what it once was, which just adds more stress to us that suffer from chronic pain.

37:19 And you know, I, I, I tell you, I don't miss going to pain management for me, you know, 6 1/2 years of not having to go every month and pee in a cup every time and prove that I'm taking what I'm being prescribed and always worrying about, you know, do we need to change the meds because the tolerant, because I would always build up tolerance. And so we are constantly having to change the prescriptions around or that or the gazillion times insurance decided to play policy maker and decide what I could and couldn't take. There were times where the doctors trying to prescribe something for me because because of the tolerance issues, it was a constant juggle and we try something different to replace 1. And I mean, the insurance companies would be like, Nope, Nope.

38:03 Yep. It's like, how is that their decision? You know, to it's just we're we're just, you know, money to them and. The part of the diabetes. Yeah, the poor doctors in the middle of it, you know, they're stuck in the middle of it and they don't get a say. They try to get a say with with the companies, but they don't listen. And I mean, there's been times when the doctor says, look, I'm so sorry. We got it. We got to do what they say. They're dictating what specific medication I can take and he goes, we got to give us some time and if it doesn't work and then I can go back to them and then we can, you know, adjust course. And I had to do that so many times. It's like, and these would be medications that we know don't work on me and I would have to suffer more pain.

38:46 And because we'd have to wait like a month or so. And it's like he's like, well, it's either that or you have to pay full price because they're not going to cover it. And actually, I tell you what's crazy. I don't know if I've really talked about this much. Really one of the best opiates that were told me was Oxycontin. You know, the one that's so demonized, right? And that was like Percocets and and Oxycontins were always the ones that worked well on me. And it got to the point towards my later years in pain management, the insurance refused to pay. They're like, we're not paying for Oxycontin. You can do the oxycodone or this or that, but the Oxycontin brand, well, you know, there are many times where you find a specific brand works on you and the generics don't work very well.

39:32 And so I had to make a decision at one point, well, they're not going to pay for it anymore. So do I pay out of pocket and not be in as much pain or do I suffer with, you know, the generic version? And I at one point I'm like, screw the insurance company, I'm just going to pay, you know, because I don't want to suffer. And it's really bad looking back on that. Like, man, I had to spend a good portion of my income just to not be in massive pain because I don't want to go in disability. I could have way back then. I chose not to. It's like I like to work, you know, you and I are a lot of like that, But I mean, we've been entrepreneurs a long time and I, I love working, I love doing things, I love creating and I.

40:17 Don't want to go in disability unless I absolutely have to. I agree with you there. Don't, unless it's not. Fun I, I, I just, and I don't, and I think everybody has, you know, their own choices to make. And I think it's fine all the people that are able to do that and still do things and, and, and make it work in their life. But I'm, I'm going to go as long as I can until I have to. And I it just sucked that wow to not be bedridden. I got to pay a shit load of money every month so I can have Oxycontin because it works and the insurance company doesn't care. And it, it was a big frustration of mine. But when I lost access to pain management, I discovered kratom.

40:58 I'm like, I advocate so hard because. And you have the freedom. How did I not know about this? It worked for me. For me it works even better than the Oxycontin. Did it. It erases the pain. That's the perfect way to say it. It erases the pain. It really does. I still have pain, of course, and it's going to wear off and I'll be in massive pain. But in pain management, your pain is always top of mind because even though you get the meds, it's not 100%. You know, I was still like always feeling like I was walking under a black cloud all the time. It's depressing. You still hurt turning a certain way or bending down, you know, excruciating.

41:40 I discovered kratom that I have really severe degenerative disk disease in my back and neck. I was not able to bend down. It hurts so bad with kratom I can bend down now. I know I shouldn't and I I work very hard not to, but when I at. Least you can. When I do, I can still feel something, but it's not excruciating where I'm practically in tears like the way I used to be. And it blows me away that a plant allows me to feel this way and have the freedom to be able to do more than I could do before in all those years in pain management. You know, I, I feel like I, it's like I don't feel like I'd ever have to retire or go on disability if I have my access to Cranium because it works that well for me.

42:28 Well, and you have that, like you said, the freedom and that used to bug me when I think about I'm on pain management. They have all the control. They can control when I have the appointment, when I have the medicine, when I don't have the medicine, I can't move to another state because the timing of the appointments, I mean, everything is controlled by them like 100%. And that used to the thought of that used to really bug me. Plus the whole thing of how they treat humans, if they even if you can even say how they treat humans because they don't treat humans like humans. So when you tell me about kratom, it was like, I mean, even if I'm still under pain management, it's this freedom because I can control the orders. I can pay for my own order. And OK, so it's nice that insurance pays for oxy. But The thing is with kratom I manage my own kratom aspect so it it allows me to feel free.

43:19 So even if I do have pain management, I'm still free as a human being, whereas before I felt 100% controlled. Wow, that's that was a powerful statement. You just said that really powerful. Now I know what the intro for the podcast will be. That was very powerful. Oh, and, and I do want to give some advice to anyone who has pain management or wants pain management looking for that. And it does help if, if you're going to take this advice, it helps if you're in a state that already has like for instance, especially medical marijuana is already available. But if marijuana is available recreationally is if that law has already passed, now kratom, that's a whole nother thing as far as you need to look up where If kratom is illegal, then probably this advice isn't worth anything. So you can ignore this advice.

44:10 Sorry, but if kratom is not illegal, in other words, double negative there, Kratom is not illegal and marijuana is recreationally available, you can, it's legal. Then I would say go up to, you know, either call them or actually visit your pain management, pain management place that you want to go to. If you're trying to scout out pain management places and just ask the question, ask them if it's OK to use marijuana for pain and if it's OK to use kratom and just ask the question. Because the worst case, especially if you're scouting out different places, the worst, the worst case is they'll say, no, it's not OK. And you go to the next place and ask. And I mean, maybe make a whole list of of the different places that you want to contact.

44:56 Maybe play. I, I think it personally helps if you walk in, I think you get a better response from people and you can actually see them and read them. And like you said, Madeline starts getting the vibe on how they'll take things. It's a little easier if you can read their face. But I mean, you could also call them on the phone and check with them, but you might burn a bridge if they get really nasty and they can't stand. It's like, Oh no, we wouldn't dare and did it. And then but maybe you want to have your spouse go on and ask a question, then they don't know it's you and then you can come in later and then just not claim to ever. I mean, there's different. Yeah. Or have a friend friend go ask a question. But if you find a place like I did that says, hey, we have no problem with it. It's legal in the state, so why should we have a problem? Hey now. Bingo. Write that one down. That's the place that you want to go to.

45:37 So because I can't believe that the place where I went is the only place in the whole United States that believes that way. It's just, I didn't know that that they think that way. But it makes sense. It's common sense that if it's legal in the state, it's legal at pain management. Right, That's some great advice. So moving forward, like what I know a lot of stuff to just have like, you know, the whole getting the miracle marijuana. I mean that that's very recent, right? So, so where do you go from here? Do you like you have the pain management doctor now or you still scouting? Yep, no, I do. I have I have that gal. The only thing she doesn't allow is is drinking and I I actually don't drink that much anyway. And I'll, I mean, I hope she's not watching this Keiko. No, if I, if I have any, any alcohol, any wine at all, I just, I actually, I, I know this sounds, I don't really like alcohol that much, you know, other than a glass of wine, but I just won't have it the night before appointment. So, but that's really the only thing that I'm not allowed to have.

46:35 So and I don't, I don't do anything illegal. So I'm good. I told her I said, hey, I could kiss you. Yeah, I think she's from California because that's AI said that to paramedics one time after a seizure. So yeah, so I really like, I really like her. She's a she's a good person. I'm, I'm signed up and and set up for or service with that pain management center. So they do exist. There is hope out there to find a good pain management place and I don't, I don't know that I'll sue the other place. Although another thing too, because I was looking into as far as suing the other place, it seems like their contracts are really vague when I was asking questions about. I do have a lawyer that's looking into it, but it seems like they can be really vague and it's like the laws on their side, they probably have really well paid lawyers.

47:21 I don't know. I don't know what I'm talking about in saying this, but it's like it's like, oh, we didn't like the color of your eyes, so we decided to discontinue service with you. I mean, I'm being facetious, but it's like, OK, so kratom would be just like, well, we just decided we didn't like kratom that day. So then you're not serviced anymore. I mean even if it's not in their contract, they can allow anything in their contract to just not service you anymore. So if that's true then it's like you don't have a leg to stand down to sue them. For me I'm legal though. How? How could it be legal for them to not have Kratom in, in their contract that you signed, but all of a sudden like we're going to fire you because you have kratom in you. We, we, you know, found or or not necessarily that we found Kratom on you don't take so much like how they even know how much you are consuming.

48:10 Like how is it they're allowed to test you for things without your knowledge? I don't know, that's a good question. And the discharge letter, they didn't give me discharge. That's a whole other thing. They didn't seem to have a discharge letter. We actually went over. I found out from the new pain management that by law they have to give me a discharge letter within 15 minutes of me asking for one. So we drove over there and asked for one and it said on there it was because of kratom. It's like you don't have kratom mentioned in your contract, but yet on the discharge letter you got rid of me because of kratom. That doesn't make sense. So but when I was looking at the whole legal thing, it seems like they can get rid of you for any reason. But why did they put kratom on the discharge letter? So to me that it's still a little hanky, but I think I have for me personally, I think I have basis because I had seizure because of their advice. So that one still seems a little I don't know I might look into that one as a lawyer.

49:01 But now that I found another Crane Center, I feel pretty good about the. Future right right now I totally understand, but this is a a good wake up call for everybody listening that's in pain management that like things like this happen. So it's trying to, you know, wade, wade through these waters to figure out should you ask if they test for it? Should you get get a copy of of your contract if you don't have it or get a new one updated? I, I think it's just important to have as much information as possible, but you know, it's at the same time, it's like, well, but what if they're anti kratom and you just bring it up and that causes some kind of negative reaction from the doctor and they want to terminate you?

49:45 I, I mean, I agree with you. I think it doesn't hurt to ask. It doesn't hurt to have a conversation. But also we know the medical community, they don't really like it if we are knowledgeable with things and we question things. You know, I know a lot of doctors don't like that. I think if I had a pain, man, like, OK, if we're going back, I'm I'm with Lisa, I think I wouldn't bring up kratom. I mean, she had brought it up and she said you need to cut back. If I had to do over again, well, I don't know if I'd do anything different because I did actually cut back to zero in the last seizure. So then the next time I started taking because every time I went to go take a gabapentin, I'm like, I don't want to have another seizure. I just the idea of having another seizure. I just couldn't do it. So then I would go take the kratom instead of gabapentin. So of course I had kratom in my system and that's why I popped for kratom.

50:31 But I think if you're already going to pain management, I don't think I'd like you said, I don't think I would bring up kratom because it just, it raises a red flag. And then if they weren't testing for it, they'll start testing for it because you brought it up. But I think if you're taking Kratom and you have pain management, I think I'd start to make that list of who to scout out for. So you have a backup list. I think I'd start doing. That that's it. OK. That's excellent advice. And I think for in 2025, I think for anybody in pain management, you should definitely have a backup plan, at least something written up so that you're not just out in the cold overnight.

51:15 And now, you know, when this, you know, was started so much of the issues in pain management with losing access or just the way, you know, doctors treat us. It really started when the whole CDC in the 2016 when they were trying to change the enemy and have it capped. You know, it was so crazy. And I remember this clearly because I'm in pain management. And apparently they had something that they that was geared for pain for not for pain management doctors for primary care physicians advising them not to prescribe over 90 MME for for, for with opiates. And it's like, OK, that makes sense. You know, if you're not pain management, you're just primary care.

52:04 I mean, you're treating everybody comes in with issues, but you're not necessarily treating long term stuff. If somebody comes in with some kind of major health issues that needs long term care, somebody needs, you know, to manage their pain because it's chronic, they're going to send you somewhere else. The thing is that letter was so misinterpreted that it affected pain management doctors and that should have never happened. So I always was a bit worried, but my doctor would anytime I brought it up, he'd always reassure me is that it's fine, it's fine, it's not going to affect us. And so I never thought to have a backup plan And and I wish I had done something because the writing was on the wall because all you heard about for years following that constantly in the news, constantly from people suffer from chronic pain on their social media talking about losing access or being forced off their meds or being tapered down or, you know, oh, I can only get half, half of my usual meds now. That's all the doctor prescribed. There was so much talk about that and still I just thought my doctor's cool.

53:04 We have a great relationship. He says that's fine. I'm not going to worry about it until I get a formal letter to mail in 2019. So here we are all these years later, it's 2025. This is, it feels like this is happening on steroids now. It feels like this happens way more to so many people. So I, I think it's great advice, Deb. I think anybody that's in pain management have a back, do some research, have have some, you know, things on the side because you never know. Yep, I was thinking about it, but I didn't do it ahead of time and I wish I'd done it ahead of time. Although for me it did all come together and work out just. Fine. Yeah, it worked out great for you. Within two days, I mean, I contacted you and then I think it was the next day, I already had a new pain management. So I was very fortunate that it worked out so well. I'm so glad that because yeah, no one should have to suffer and go through these things.

53:55 So I'm glad it worked out. I think this made for a great topic of discussion today because other people need to know so they feel less alone that are going through something similar to you. So to wrap up, oh, I, I know it, this conversation helped people for sure. So to wrap up what was just some parting words to share out to people that suffer from chronic pain that, you know, feel like they, they, you know, need to hear something so they feel less alone. I think never let anyone make you feel less human. You are a human being and you deserve to be loved. Exactly where you're at and exactly who you are here now. Well said. This was such a great conversation, Deb.

54:36 Thank you so much for coming back on the podcast and sharing this with everybody. Thank you for having me, I appreciate it.