Ep 60: Finding Freedom: Mary's Battle with Addiction, Chronic Pain, and Cancer

1:39 Before we dive into today's episode, I want to let you know about Kratom Real Talk. It's a new community for positive, uplifting discussions about the power of whole leaf kratom. If you'd like to be part of the conversation and learn more about this plate or contribute your knowledge, go to kratomrealtalk.com. So I'm here with Mary, somebody I met through our Kratom Real Talk community, and I am so excited, Mary, to have you here with us today to share your kratom story. So tell everybody a little bit about yourself and life before kratom. Well, my love affair with opiates began in 2006. I had My mother had arthritic knees and she always had Vicodin.

2:31 This is when back in the day, they would prescribe 100 Vicodin for you, the 10 milligram, you know, every couple of weeks. Doctors were just throwing the opiates out. So I learned from the very first pill that, oh, this is how I'm supposed to feel. Finally had sort of relief from the social anxiety that the stresses that, you know, everything. And so I developed a using Vicodin or Norco as a crutch. Yeah, in 2006, anything from a menstrual cramp to a bad day at work, one of those little suckers would just make me feel like everything was going to be OK again. Well, Fast forward, I don't know how much of my history you want to know, but I was in the same profession for 30 years. It was a very, very high functioning alcoholic only would drink at night then because I knew the next morning I could take a Vicodin or two and I could get through the day. I would be fine and then I'd drink again at night. So I was one of these people that were look appeared to be very successful by day.

3:39 By night I was a train wreck. I was taking Xanax for every emotion. I was drinking at night. I was smoking cigarettes, I was taking opiates. I had undiagnosed severe sleep apnea so in 2014 I technically died one night and the the man I was sleeping next to revived me. I had stopped breathing because I had taken my usual cocktails. Ambien, methadone because I didn't have any vicodins. My friend gave me methadone, which accumulates in your system and can get very dangerous very fast, especially when you're combining it with alcohol or any other respiratory suppressors like benzos, Xanax. So I took all of those, He revived me, and then I made a huge life decision the very next day that I needed to change or I was going to die.

4:32 I quit my job. I got my life together for about a year. I'd used all my 4O1K to facilitate this new career that I started back in 2016. I took a year off to completely get fit, get my life together. I stopped the benzos, stopped the stopped the opiates, stopped that. I was still maintaining booze a little bit, but it wasn't as much. I was drinking like a normal person at this point, socially drinking because my job was very, very active with this job, it ended up wearing down the cartilage in both of my knees. So I knew that I had the arthritis, but the the physicality of this job more the rest of the cartilage down.

5:17 Soon I was in agony couldn't do my job function without some kind of a, you know, pain relief. Got back to the Vicodin went and finally my knees just wouldn't work at all. I collapsed on the street, couldn't walk. It was they were done. So I had my knee replaced January of 2023. Well, I was given ox, the granddaddy of all opiates, the Holy Grail, if you will, right. So I get my knee done, I'm recovering from my knee. As I'm recovering I look down and I see a golf ball sized lump that quickly within weeks turns into half a softball size. Find out it's a sarcoma, a soft tissue sarcoma. So after the knee recovery, they cut out this sarcoma and I'm recovering from that.

6:08 They're still giving me oxy because of the operations, the sarcoma now I've got to have radiation. So I'm doing radiation daily for I think it was 30 days. I didn't. And my leg is it was pretty cooked. The pain was intense and was peeling. It was bleeding, it just it was bad. So can Tim you on with the beloved oxy? We get to the point where the doctor says, OK, you know, you've had enough. It's time. We need to slow this down. We need to cut this off. So they cut me off of the oxy. I'm having that gut wrenching turning just the way if anybody's ever withdrawn from opiates, once you get past the physical withdrawal where you're you passed, where you feel like your bones are coming through your skin, then you have that just it's Misty describes it as an itch that can't be scratched.

7:02 It's just the way it is when you're an opiate addict. There's just something missing from your life, something that you need. Nothing is quite satisfying until you have your precious little pill that makes everything right again. So I scrolling TikTok, I had heard about kratom and so I went down to the local smoke shop and got, I think they were called train wreck. It was little capsules and I took four or five of them as recommended and half an hour later, often I nothing hurt, no eggs, that pit of gnawing need in my stomach gone.

7:43 All of a sudden I didn't the opiates were not foremost on my mind. The pain was gone. I wasn't obsessed. I was felt like a normal person again. I couldn't believe it. And I thought, you know, and still being in that addict Phase, I thought, well, gosh, if four or five are this wonderful, what would happen if I took 10? You learn very quickly that you can't because your eyes will wobble and then you spew your guts out. So you learn. In fact, I'd watch it started watching you on TikTok and Kratom cows. And you'd said with this plant, less is more. So then what I did was I backed way I'd gotten powdered at this juncture.

8:25 I thought, well, you know, powder is probably better than the capsules because I was running through capsules and I started, I'd made tea and I used to make it in hot chocolate, but it just, you couldn't disguise that bitterness. And somebody on to, I don't know if it was you or somebody taught me to take the gulp of water, throw the the powdered Kratom back and then another gulp of water and then you don't even taste it. So I just, I got very good at that. But now instead of capsules several times a day, now it's just the kratom once in the morning and it's about a teaspoon. And then once about 2:00 PM when it started pouring off. So 6:00 AM and 2:00 PMI would take my second dose at 2:00 PM and then that would get me through the rest of the day.

9:10 I'd stopped Ambien, I'd stopped Xanax, stopped all that. If I needed to sleep, I go for gummies, not the the CBD, but the whole, the full spectrum, the CBD. I think it's CBN and THC. So it's a 3 combo for sleep. So I was doing that. I wasn't doing the Ambien anymore just and so I go, I'm doing that for a while. I'm happy with the Kratom and it's given me all the pain relief from the radiation on my leg from my still healing surgeries. My left knee was just, it's a tight mess of scar tissue and all of that. So now I think, well, my right knee is still bad. That's why I'm still using the bait kratom, which is now for pain. It's time to get my right knee replaced. So I told my doctor about, you know, I'm not taking oxy, I'm not taking any opiates, I'm taking kratom. And of course he want kratom, Kratom. He wants to know all about this magical thing, has no idea about it.

10:08 Even the anesthesiologist came in and wanted to know all about it. So I'm giving these doctors a lesson. I love it. You know, on this on my kratom journey. And so they researched it and they, they found what they needed to know. And at this time I was taking less than 5 grams per day. And they said really it shouldn't hurt taking 5g or less per day should not interfere in any way with the anesthesia for your surgery. So he said, but I would like you to just stop the day before your knee replacement so that it just in case it interferes. And then I want you to take oxy again while you're in recovery from the knee. So, you know, OK, if you insist, I'll take it again. Old ways die very hard.

10:56 And so had my knee done. Got the oxy again. Fast forward two weeks after my knee replacement, I looked down at my left knee. The sarcoma has come back. I know. I tell my doctor, they do the full scan. It's now in my knee and my lung. So they decide, OK, we'll remove the one from your knee, but we're going to need you to do chemo to get the address the sarcoma in your lung. So then and the doctor says that well, I'm sorry, I need to backtrack again. After a reasonable time with the oxy, I started back on kratom for my knee replacement and now the surgery for my left knee to get out the sarcoma. So I'm off the oxy.

11:40 It was on oxy very short time. I don't even think I got a refill. I went straight back to kratom because of the fact that the oxy messes with your intestines so badly. And it not only does it, you know, not only does it slow down your digestion, but if you end up going a few days and have to go to the bathroom after being constipated, it is a nightmare. And. Been through a. Nightmare. Yeah, and that, not to be graphic, but that caused issues that lasted a year. And I was very glad to be having kratom because kratom seems to help my digestion. I also suffer from Crohn's disease time to time time, and it's helpful because it moves things through.

12:27 I do drink a lot of water, but I feel like my digestion health has gotten much, much better than it ever has in my life. And I have to credit kratom for that. And I know a lot of people have said with Crohn's disease and things, it is very helpful, helpful for the intestines. And so then I, you know, I find out. So I'm back on the kratom and then I find out from my doctor, OK, we need to do chemotherapy to we want to address the tumors with the tumors in your lungs with the chemo to see what the chemo does, what effect it has on the tumors. So essentially I'm a Guinea pig for this chemo. Turns out that it's AIM chemo, which is the most brutal chemo that you can have. It's very, very hard on your heart. It's very hard on your bladder.

13:15 It's not a nice chemo to have. And so the doctor said, look, we don't know what the interactions with kratom and chemo are going to be because of this gnarly chemo. I want you to stop the kratom usage while you're doing chemotherapy. And I said, OK, that's fair. So then I've now I've gotten the golden ticket. I, he's prescribing me 100 oxys a week. That's a lot of oxy, a lot of oxy, right? And I'm on a regular schedule. I have to say that at this time also, I had started when I was in the throes of chemo and very, very, very uncomfortable from the chemotherapy. Oxy can just take the edge off. It doesn't do anything for your psychological well-being, your emotional and just your overall anxiety and and trauma of the chemo.

14:08 Losing your hair is extremely traumatic. It's terrible. I, you know, my hair is down past my bra strap, you know, a blonde and it just, it itched off my head one day. That's how brutal the chemo was. So I had started taking 100 milligram THC capsules and I got it definitely THC and chemo are meant to go hand in hand. I had so much relief from the THC capsules. Not only would it sort of still my mind, my body, I could rest, I could eat, whereas before I couldn't think of eating. I couldn't drink water. I just, you know, I could drink sort of fizzy water and that was about it.

14:51 It allowed me to eat, it allowed me to rest. It'll, it was just life changing. I don't know how people go through chemo without marijuana. It just, it's, it's off. It's incredible. So anyway, I go to, I have the chemo for three months. This was last summer and then it's September. They do my scan after I've gone through three rounds of chemo. I cannot do the last three rounds until they do the scan and check to see if it's had any effect. They do the scan. It's had no effect on the tumors in my lungs at all. They've removed the one from my knee. They cleared all the margins, so now the cancer is only in my lung.

15:32 So in September they do a surgery to resect a wedge of lung and they got all the tumors. And I knew waking up from surgery that I was cancer free because I can feel it. I felt it. I wasn't, I would not be able to carry in a bag of groceries without sitting down to feeling normal again, feeling like myself. It was like I it was. I knew the cancer was gone from my body even before I had recovered from that. So I emailed my doctor in October and I said, OK, you know what's going on? Do I still have cancer? I feel pretty great. And he confirmed that I was 100% cancer free.

16:13 So that day I stopped the oxy and I went back to went back to the kratom. The you know, I still have the open incision wounds and everything in my leg is still exist, still healing. And I had forgotten to mention I got Cellulitis infection in my leg, a skin infection from the radiation. And so I still had this, this horribly painful infection going on. And as soon as you told me I was cancer free and was not going to have to do chemotherapy, I stopped the oxy. I went right back to the cratum at six O clock in the morning and then two in the afternoon. And it was just the immense relief that I got both emotionally and not having to take the oxy. My body immediately felt better.

16:58 My digestion issues improved dramatically and I just, I felt like I was more in control. I just, you know, I got better pain relief, which is absolutely amazing. And so now I have gotten it down to it's about a half a small teaspoon at 6:00 in the morning and I'm not even taking my afternoon dose anymore. Because I'm. Not in pain. So it just, it's amazing. Your story is incredible. It's. Incredible the. Old me would. Have milked that oxy prescription for and you know, once you get cancer, you've you're now you've gotten the golden ticket for as many opiates as you want the rest of your life. And I didn't go back to it and it just it says so much for this wonderful plant During my whole journey, I've completely changed my life around.

17:52 I don't smoke cigarettes. I don't I'm 15 months alcohol free and TikTok helped a lot with that. I follow a lot of sober tik tokers and that have helped me. I don't attend AAI don't necessarily believe in rehashing 12 steps and all of that. I, I believe you, go forward in life and so now it is just, I use the crate and half a teaspoon in the morning and occasionally marijuana because I like it, but I don't have to use anything anymore. And that just to me, it's a miracle. It really is. That's got to be an amazing feeling to like you don't feel like you have to take any of these things anymore. Yes, yes, you know.

18:35 Doxy the the benzos, all the other things and that you're just doing everything naturally. Kratom, you're talking about the CBN. I've been I've been and your THC. I've been using CBN in the evening and I really like it a lot. Right, right. Gummies, which I never even heard of right until recently. So right, plant medicine is amazing. Yes. But The thing is, big Pharma, they're not, the doctors are not going to make a cent off of this, right? You know, and it's, I found it extremely creepy that they made me do the chemo before they did the operation where they could have just taken the lung section out and avoided all the chemo.

19:16 But where's the money in that? The infusion shots that I was giving myself once a day to sort of build back my bone marrow, those were the, my Kaiser insurance covered it. But that's $2000 a week for just the shots. Wow. So what do you think? Are they trying to make money on the chemo and everything that goes along with it? Of course, of course. It's big business. Yeah, I don't think. People realize, I mean, when I was in pain management, looking back while I was in it, I didn't realize what was happening, but I had so. Many. And they treat you like a creep, huh? Right. I had so many epidural steroid injections. I had radiofrequency ablations. They make a ton of money on those procedures. Insurance covered most of it. I remember I still had like a cope. I had to pay like a percent each time. I end up doing a total of 12 between epidural steroid injections and radiofrequency ablations on my neck and back over the years.

20:07 And it's like, and of course you go to the surgical center to have it and they disclose that the doctor is. Owner of the surgical center, you know, I just didn't put two and two together for a really long time and it's like they keep you in this cycle because that's how they make money. But. Your story's incredible. I have so many questions. I don't even know where to begin. Let me, I want to start with, you were this last time with the cancer treatment and you know you're going through chemo and all the things and then you were back on the oxy this last time when you went back to kratom, how long were you taking the oxy this last time around? And to just switch like immediately go right back to the kratom? Was it just months or a year or how? No, I started, I started chemotherapy July 11th, lost all my hair July 22nd.

20:57 And these the chemo sessions were four days, 9 hours in the hospital with infusion and then I wore a pump at home and it would continue overnight and into that. So it was a total of four days. I did that from January 11th until mid-september, I want to say. And then I had the lung recession surgery. I had COVID in the middle in September, you know, so that delayed it a little bit. Wow. I had the lung recession surgery on on September 29th and then I healed from that and then October, it was October 30th is when my doctor said no more, I don't need chemo.

21:40 I'm cancer free. I stopped oxy that day and I went right back to chemo. So I was on oxy. I mean right back to creative. I was so from July until October, I was doing the oxy and the very I stopped it the day and then the very next day when I woke up with all the feels and the you know, that horrible. To. You know. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I took my little teaspoon and it was all better. So all better. You have such an interesting perspective that I think our listeners are going to learn so much from. So when you the first time went from kratom back to oxy, you know, a while back, what was it like?

22:21 You've been through withdrawals of opiates. You know you've had that experience. You know what it's like. What was it like when you stop the kratom per the doctor's suggestion and just go to the oxy? Did you feel like you had any kind of withdrawals when you stop kratom? None, none, none. The only thing that I miss like since I take the oxy, I sort of have a routine. I'd set up my coffee to start brewing. I take the kratom and then everything's fight. Well, sometimes I get busy in the morning and don't take that kratom and then like 9:00, I'm like, I don't have as much energy as I should. I don't have that sort of euphoric feeling. My knee's a little, oh, I forgot to take the kratom. So it's nothing like forgetting to. I mean, you forget to take your oxy. You're in the bathroom with diarrhea. You're yeah.

23:09 And you don't feel good. Yeah, like you don't forget to take your oxy. So many people. Practically people, always. Putting out you know how many pills you have left. I have never once in my life gone to cupboard and shake in the bag to see how much left. Right, right. I know because we don't sit here and dwell on it. It's just not the same experience with opiates versus kratom. It's so easy to forget to dose kratom. Exactly. And like Miss T said, it really allows you to press pause on your addictions because it takes that obsession away and it lets you get down to the whys of things. Why? Why do you feel you need it? Why?

23:50 You know what's happening in your life? And it really, I really can't say enough about it. It's like a miracle. Yeah, it's it's it's an amazing plant. And also when you're talking about going through chemo multiple times. So when you went through that, you did not ever take kratom at the same time. It was always the oxy that. And I that makes sense because most people in the medical profession don't even know what kratom is. I think it's amazing that you are educating your doctor, your anesthesiologist. Same with me. I've yet to meet anybody in the medical profession locally when I've gone for anything where they knew about it. But like you, I've had a couple surgeries where I tell the doctors they don't really know what it is, but they okayed it with what with a foot surgery I had, the anesthesiologist said just don't take it after midnight.

24:39 You know, the usual in the morning, you know, So I followed all their instructions and both times it was a appendicitis. And then I've had a foot surgery and both times was able to go from kratom to the the IV meds, you know, opiates, but a long, a long enough time and pass in between, like, you know, a significant amount of time. And I went right back to kratom when I got discharged from both of those. And just like you, like I didn't feel like I needed it. I always, I always get better pain relief with kratom than I do with opiates. So it's just, I know not everybody does, but I think it's amazing that so many of us do so well with this plant that we can say no to when doctors want to prescribe opiates, even though we know they don't prescribe them like they used to during a different time now, but still be it's so powerful to say no, I don't need it.

25:30 Well I have a along that same line. Before I got my second knee done and I was on the Kratom, I visited my friend in Oregon and I hurt my knee, my right knee. I we hiked and I did something and I couldn't walk. It was, you know, swelled up. It was just awful. And she had Vicodin, a whole bottle of her, her mother's Vicodin. Her mother passed and she had this and she hands me this, this bottle of like 50 Vicodin. And I said I didn't need it because I grade them. I just thought to my I had to pause and giggle to myself. She didn't know my history, but I had to pause and kind of giggle to myself that, Oh my God, who am I right now that I could turn down somebody offering me 50?

26:17 Mike, that is. Powerful. Yeah, very. For anyone that suffered through addiction moment. Oh, I'm sure it was. I never suffered through addiction at All in all in my 9 years with pain management. I feel very lucky. I feel very fortunate hearing so many stories like yourself, stuff with people in the struggles of of addiction. It's heart wrenching. And I think it's just amazing that this plant allows you to say no to that when the opportunity arises. And so many people I've talked to have said the exact same thing and even go so far to say, you know, I still got beer in the fridge from a long time ago and I just have no desire for it.

26:57 And I just like, wow. Like it really does put a pause on all of that. Yes, it really, it really does. I had wanted to quit. Well, my job, the job that I have is I'm on call all the time. So there's no drinking because you can't show up and work with law enforcement with alcohol. Right. Without looking like a total loser. I don't know if the kratom helped me with the alcohol, but the alcohol was never my first love. Opiates were my first love. You know, I remember the minute that that when that switched, switched, when I took my first one and felt this is how it feels to be normal.

27:38 This is how other people feel. Right. And you said you're 15 months of no alcohol. Do you feel like kratom has played a role in that? I don't know. I think that I credit more well, my my lifestyle. I mean, I right now, I mean, I don't even put sugar into my body anymore after having cancer. It just makes you Uber aware of every little thing in your body. So alcohol is just completely off the table. I don't know if that helped, but that you know, like I said, opiates were my love. What I want to know is back to when you first bought kratom in the smoke shop, how did you like first hear about it? Do you hear about it somewhere on the Internet or word of mouth? Like how did you first know it even existed? You know, I think my friend that likes to hike and she's a total nap nature girl, she had one of those little feel free Kava kratom shots and I don't know if that's an extract or not, but she was saying how wonderful it was and she said yeah, it supposedly helps with opiate withdrawal. So my ears perk up really.

28:45 So I did have the desire to not want to take opiates and take opiates. So I think with the kratom and just the fact that I knew about it, I knew I had to do something to mitigate these horrible withdrawal feelings. And I was kind of at the last my last sort of hope and I thought, well, I'll try anything at this point. And that I mean really that at that unclenching of that aching me just dissipated so. So it started with the. Feel free you tried that first. Yeah, tried that. 1st so and that's an that is an extract that is feel free is an extract of cava Alfredo. It's a little small bottle.

29:26 It looks like a little like the little 5 hour energy drink shots that they call it. It's a yeah store and these are readily available in gas stations. Convenience very, very yes, they're very expensive. Now I'm not sure what the for that one, what the serving size is, but usually those little bottles or multiple servings. But it's not obvious because who's paying attention to the fine print that says, oh, this little tiny bottle is 3 servings and now you got to figure out how to make 3 servings out of it, which nobody does. So while I'm not a big fan of the extracts, if you are suffering with pain and addiction and you're just, you know, finding something for relief and it helps you, that's great.

30:09 But then do your research, people need to spend time researching and learn about the because there's different types of kratom. And then to let you know, I think when people realize the whole leaf powder does so much because it's the whole plant, you know, it's just magic. I think more than the extracts and the extract can be, you know, some people get addicted to them because they could, because again, they're not paying attention to the serving sizes on extracts. And I think for somebody that's been through addiction, I think it's easy for them to fall into that trap. I'm glad that didn't happen to you because so many times people I talked to, they just find it in a smoke shop. They just buy whatever the clerk tells them to buy, not realizing it could be an extract when they're just trying to really watch what they're consuming.

30:56 But they're not educated yet because they're just brand new to it. Exactly, exactly, which is why I had gotten the train wreck capsules and just a few of them. I mean, it just it took that, that it scratched that itch. It's amazing that you got that the very first time you took it because yeah, I've talked to so many people over the years and what I pretty much have determined based on all the people I've talked to is about South like 5050. About half the people I talked to say the very first time I took kratom where there was a powder, an extract, whatever. It was magic. This is amazing. I love it. And then there's like the other half that I'm in where it took trial and error. It took some trial and error. I'm like, OK, let's see what the fuss is all about. I'm like, okay, that didn't really do anything. We try a little more, still didn't do anything. Let me try.

31:44 There's other colors. Let me try one of the other colors. Like I went from trying the red, which just didn't help my pain, to the white, which was like, my gosh, why did I ingest that? Because that just made my eyes just a little too much. Kind of got the wobbles. I didn't throw up, but just my eyes just were like kind of like, oh, I got too much caffeine. And then I tried the green. I'm like, OK, I'm getting something with this green one. And it's just trial and error to figure out the dose and and you know the color of the dose. There's just so much to it. But I love hearing stories like yours where that very first time it was magic. It just and and you have to remember too, I was in withdrawals. I was day I was probably on my 25th hour without the opiates. And so I was definitely feeling pretty bad and that didn't I didn't get a high.

32:34 I just got relief is the best way to describe it. But the little the little feel free shots that definitely is too wiry. I don't like it. It was just not it's not a good fit. But yeah, you, I, I credit you with a lot of, you know, helping me with the with the sort of dosage and less is more. And in fact, I just ordered from Etha and I'm getting. Oh, Etha, Etha botanicals. Yeah, the pressed. Pills today. Oh, you know, I wish I had known about those pressed tablets when I started creating because, you know, like earlier you were talking about the toss and wash method Where? And you probably learned it from Misty because Misty does that. I don't.

33:16 Yeah, that's probably Misty because, yeah, you put a little bit of, like, water or some kind of drink in your mouth, then you tap your little, you know, teaspoon or whatever of powder, then you'd get some more water and then just wash it down. It's called toss and wash. And I knew the first time I saw a video of what that was, I'm like, oh, that's not for me. I was worried I would choke. So I've always done the swamp water, and it was really hard to get down because it tastes so bad, even with juice. But it gave me amazing pain relief once I started getting the relief. So for me, it was worth it. But had I known about those tablets, I would have started with that. But The thing is they do cost more because it takes more labor to make them. They they're pressed.

33:56 And it is what I love about ether's tablet. And these are not the seven Ohi know people are hearing about these 70 tablets. This is just whole leaf kratom powder press into a tablet. What I love about ether, it is just the powder. There's no fillers. They have come up with a method to press it into a tablet. I love them. So what I do, I normally do my powder when I'm at home, but if I'm out and about I'm going to have, if I leave my home, there are tablets on me because you never know. And one time I end up in the ER a few years ago I also had a leg infection. I know what that was like. I've had that and I was in the ER for about 6 hours and I was like, thank God I brought my kratom tablets from Ethan with me because of course you're in the waiting room forever. And if I tell them I have chronic pain, are they going to give me something?

34:42 No. And so I'm just popping my kratom tablets like, oh, thank God I brought them. So I like it for that and I like it for my early morning dose so I don't have to worry about getting out of bed and making some swamp water. So I love them, but they do cost more. So I know for plenty of people, they'll say it's just a little bit pricey, which is, you know, understand. I can't wait to hear what you think of them because it is an impressive product. And not very many vendors make press tablets. And when I had them, I've had them on the podcast, the two founders, Victor and Alexander. So Alexander's the one that developed it. But Victor tells the story in my podcast when I interviewed him of how they didn't like the powder. They were both using it for chronic pain. They didn't like the powder.

35:28 And he does asking Alexander, like, can you please come up with a way? Like, we don't like the capsules because it's messy and we're making them. And it's a pain like to come up with some kind of pressed tablet with no fillers, nothing else did because you could take one of those tablets and just crush it up in your hand. And it is just the power, just the pattern. It's genius. It is because you don't really tell. I mean, of course, if you like, let it sit on your tongue, you're going to. Yeah. But if you have tablets, you're just popping up like pills, right? Right. I, I just not much of A taste. And they work really good. And because they're pressed, I think we're better than capsules because capsules, those shells have to open up. Like I would solve. I would. Open the capsules.

36:09 Yeah, all those capsule shells would make me nauseous, but as tablets, they work so well, I think in the stomach. And also I feel like it lasts a little bit longer because of the way they're dissolving and stuff. So I'm so glad you're trying them. You have to let me know what you think. Yeah, I'm. Anxious. So let's talk about like, how is this playing in kratom affecting your overall day-to-day life? Are you kidding? I would. I'm not counting out pills to see how many I have left until my next refill. We've all played that game. Yes, we have. So it's given it back honestly it just you know, there's no, I can't see any negative side effects to it.

36:54 I don't see other than the taste is the only sort of but I avoid that and now with the press powder it's going to be all avoided even more. Right, right. Yeah. It's, it's amazing how many people have gotten their lives back because of kratom, whether it was suffering with addiction, chronic pain, both. So many people I talked to, it helps them with their anxiety, depression. A lot of people say they take Kratom for pain relief or they take Kratom for addiction and use it for the recovery. And it just happens to also help them with other issues like anxiety, you know, because so many people said, yeah, like, this has been amazing for my sobriety and my recovery. And also I don't need my Xanax anymore. I don't need, I don't need my ADD medicine anymore. Like it's like a secondary thing that they weren't even expecting.

37:45 And it's amazing that a plant is doing this for so many people. Right. Because I well like in my case I did it specifically to mitigate the drug withdrawals, the addiction, and then it ended up working for the pain too, which was an added bonus. Right. Yeah, so great. And do you get nice little energy boost with Cranos? But so it's popping your stuff. Too. It would be like to me, it would be like having a cup of coffee in the afternoon, which I wouldn't think of because it's not. I don't want anything to interfere with my precious sleep. Right. And you know, it's interesting to learn that kratom is in the same plant family as coffee. So it's not surprising that you do get like some energy, but a lot of people get a little energy boost from it, but in a much better way than caffeine, I think. I feel like this is no.

38:35 Jittery. Because yeah, it's not jittery. It's like a clean. It's like a clean caffeine. Well, and also and with the because the opiates give a energy boost too, but it also makes you feel like you smoked a pack of cigarettes. It makes you that nauseous, wiry, horrible feel. With the kratom, you don't get that nauseous horrible, really. It's more like you say, it's a natural caffeine boost. Yeah. And so I'm also so amazed that you take such a small amount of Kratom, like it doesn't and everybody's different, you know, like for me, I'm taking 2 teaspoons every six hours. So that's about 5 grams. That's 20 grams a day. That's kind of like a moderate to a little high.

39:18 But also it is individualized. Some people need a couple of tablespoons for their pain relief or to help it with their recovery. Then you get somebody like yourself that like you said, you take, what was it, half a teaspoon, you said. A teaspoon. Such a small because a teaspoon is roughly 2.4g, so you're taking like half of that, so you're going to take a little. Over gram, under 5g per day at the very very most it's always under 5. That's. Just amazing you get the relief from that because also because like you were saying earlier, you always hear us saying less is more, less is more. Because I think so many times when somebody's brand new to kratom and there's so much to learn about if you're coming from the chronic pain community like me, where you are taking high doses of Oxycontin, Percocet, gabapentin, all these things.

40:08 You're just automatically assuming I'm going to need a high dose of this Kratom exactly because people will say, why have high tolerance? You know, so I, I take a lot, a lot of opiates. I'm like, doesn't mean you necessarily need a lot of kratom. Or you get somebody that has been, you know, dealing with addiction. They're trying to find this plant for their recovery and also making this assumption, well, I took a lot of drugs. I'm going to need a lot. Of drugs, right? Yeah, I started with a tablespoon and have worked my way down because the tablespoon. Too much. I had no, I was out in my yard and my eyes got wobbly. I just feel it in the bushes. So but yeah, I started with more and with that mentality.

40:53 And when it was the cap, the just the capsules, I would start out with, you know, a few and take it multiple times a day. And then I thought, well, the capsules are bugging my stomach too. So then I would empty the capsules and just start taking the powder. So then I went on to the powder and yeah, you know, and then the reputable kratom distributors that and they test their stuff, the ones that you recommend and all of that. So you have that sort of confidence that you're not getting it from a smoke shop, but it's not laced with other things, right, and all of that. So. It's so important to the, you know, make sure you're getting it from a reputable online vendor. That's why I always mentioned to people the, you know, which ones I buy from because I did a lot of research.

41:35 I have links to it on the on the Crime Stories podcast website. It'll be LinkedIn, the show notes here for this episode because when I was first starting, it was hard to figure out where do I buy this? And and people weren't always forthcoming with like where to go get it. And I did so much research and I learned a lot on my own. That's awesome. That's and I. Met a lot of great people. Oh absolutely. Yeah. So many amazing people. And that's why I love running the Kratom Real Talk community that you're a part of because it's so nice to have a place we can all gather and ask questions and help each other so we all feel so alone in our journey. Well, there's nothing out there and, you know, and there's still is the stigmatism that, well, you're not sober, you're still using, you know, well, it's plants. And I'm sorry, but consider plants to be drugs. Exactly, exactly, and you've.

42:31 Run into people that have this stigma that you are still taking drugs. You know, I, I hear that more with people who suffer from addiction that went to kratom and that a lot of them are viewed that way. As a matter of fact, we just did A2 part episode with Misty Brown and Cassie talking about kratom and recovery. And we've talked about, you know, that stigmatization, like what you're discussing that there's a lot of that in the recovery world where it's like you're just training in one addiction for another, right? That they just don't see kratom as plant medicine, right? And that's, you know, we're trying to change that. We're trying to change that narrative because it, you know, I just think it can help so many people. So many.

43:13 So many that don't accidentally take a pelvis laced with fentanyl because it happened so easily and so quickly and it just. Right. Yeah. Or in recovery, they're putting everybody on Suboxone and that rots your teeth. There's all kinds of lawsuits now. I've talked to so many people in the Crane community that were on Suboxone for years and they've lost all their teeth. How to get them replaced, other health, other health issues. Oh yeah, it's terrible. It's like they don't. The doctors I know it's disclosed this, they don't ever. Talk very very, very expensive. Isn't it like $70.00 a dosage or something ridiculous? I I'm not sure. I just know that that like in recovery, they're typically prescribing Suboxone. That's that's their way of dealing with it. Whereas plant, you know, if they use kratom, be healthier, probably work better, just so many pluses. But it's just there's a stigma still. And that's why, you know, there's so many of us loud and proud advocates for kratom because we're just trying to change that this perception people have now. For me with chronic pain, I don't really feel too much stigma.

44:23 Like I went from 1:00 to like, I just say I use a plant, right. As a matter of fact, I just did a post on my Facebook the other day because there's actually going to be a news story, an NBC News story with me about Kratom. And so I posted some pictures. It was it was last week when they came over to my home and talked to me about Kratom for my crown pain and they had filming making my Kratom tea and stuff, which was so I posted some pictures on Facebook and I'm like, oh, no big deal, NBC can my home and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I have a I've been in social media and digital marketing for a long time. And so I have a pretty large following because I've built so many, I've been building online communities since the 90s. So on my Facebook, I have a very diverse group of Facebook friends from all my different communities, including the Krannom one.

45:10 But I don't always talk about I'm going to start kind of putting more Krannom information out there. But when I put this info and the photos I mentioned about how, because I was thinking of the people who are going to read this, I don't know what Kratom is. And you know, we're getting older, we're getting more pain issues. I'm like, this is probably going to help some people that I've known a long time or maybe some old high school friends are going to see this. And I made a point to mention that, you know, they came to talk to me about Kratom, a plant that I use instead of pharmaceuticals for my chronic pain. I've already had several people that I've known a long time message me and go tell me more about this kratom and how it's helping your chronic pain. So I think it's just so important for our voices, you know, just let people know that this that's why I'm so glad you're doing this podcast.

45:56 Thank you so much because your story is going to help so many people. You. Know, because I feel like these first hand stories is the most helpful thing when you're starting your cram journey. Gosh, it's, it's scary in the beginning because you you don't know what to expect. You don't know much about it. You know, no, it's not prescribed by the doctor. It's not FDA approved, which these days doesn't really mean much. You know, it's like, no, considering what they're, yeah, I think people are it's like it could be FDA approved, but they choose not to do it not to that it's on the FDA. Money in it. Right. So they're not regulating it. So the industry is self regulated. That's why it's important to buy from third part.

46:37 You know, vendors that lab test from third parties that make sure it's all correct. It is what the package says it is. And I can see in the 5 1/2 years I've been Ukraine consumer is getting better. The packaging is so much better. When I first started kratom packaging was not very good. Like you didn't always know what you were getting and you're just trying the vendor. Whereas these days they have so much information on the package and, and it's just nice to know like, OK, the FDA should be mandating this, but they're not. So we just got to take the bull by the horns and and understand what we're doing and what we're consuming, which we should be doing anyway. I think it's easy to not pay attention. To people are just trusting and I think people are starting to realize you must educate yourself.

47:23 You must be your own doctor, you must be your own nutritionist and find out what you are taking. I had an interesting point to make last year when I had first after my first knee replacement and started the kratom. I had also started a therapy, talking to a therapist and had told her, you know, all about my past history and my drug addiction and all of that and she was just vehemently against kratom. She said I hate kratom. I have so many patients that are trying to get off of kratom and are going into drug rehabs and just she said she absolutely hate it. And I that keeps sort of wringing my head about why she hates it so much and why why it was such an evil thing to her. I mean, she was just viably against it, but I think the people that abuse it are going to abuse. 100%, yeah. And they're not taking responsibility. They're blaming.

48:23 It's like, wait a minute, did you blame the alcohol you used to drink? Yeah. Would you blame your benzos? Like, I don't understand why people don't blame all the other things that they abuse, but they blame freedom, a plant. It makes no sense, right? Well, it was, it's like when I used to have panic attacks and anxiety. That was all alcohol related. Alcohol causes anxiety, period. So they don't look at the contributing factors, right? Kratom basically is for when you're ready to get a hold of your life and you're ready to get a hold of yourself. It's a nice gentle substance that can assist with that. But it is truly up to you to get your own life in order and to be the captain of your soul, really. So I love that.

49:07 That is awesome. This has been such a great conversation. I'm so glad you're doing this with me. My last question for you is knowing everything you know now about kratom, and I know you haven't been in it for years, but you know a lot. You've been in this for quite a while. What advice would you give to someone else that would help them in their journey getting started? Wait until you're in the thick of withdrawals and then you will appreciate the magic of this plant because it just eases that. And start very small. Work up to where your eyes wobble and you know you've taken too much. It's a sort of a hit and miss. Always go to a trusted vendor. Read as much as you can, listen to as many podcasts as you can. Make your own decisions.

49:50 Make up your own mind about it. Try it when you're in the in the throes of withdrawal and you find something natural that takes that away. You've got to run with that and change your life. I mean, it's, it's giving you tools to regain control of your life. I think that's the best way to describe it. Well said, I love that. Thank you so much Mary for taking fine, hanging out with me and talking about your journey is you've had an incredible 1. Yes, yes, so, well, thank you. I appreciate your interest and I appreciate all that you do for this wonderful plant in this community. And you know, I know you're helping people.

50:31 And if, if it saves one life, it's all worth it for sure. 100 percent, 100%. Thank you for listening. You can get more information at kratomstoriespodcast.com, including show notes from this episode.