Ep 87: From Chaos to Clarity: Lea Lyden’s Journey from Addiction to Healing with Kratom

0:00 But my mood, the depression, the ADHD and let me also say this. I have 0 cravings, 0 cravings for alcohol. ADHDI haven't touched my my ADHD meds. I haven't even thought about it. But you know, I'm not allowed to drink with it. It, it keeps me in check, but you know, it eliminated all the cravings and that's the only thing in my entire life that has ever kept me like on the straight and narrow, even with my, my green card. It used to be you're ripping it all day. Now it's a little gummy at night and then I go to bed. It it's like how you're supposed to be doing it.

0:43 And I can't believe it. I, I, I, I really can't believe it. And I have IBS irritable bowel also helps with that. It's cured it. Hey friends, before we dive in, I want to share something really important. A lot of us are frustrated right now with censorship on social media like Facebook and TikTok, all because we talk about kratom. That's why I built a space where we can speak freely and support each other without any fear. It's called kratom Real talk.

1:23 You can join us at kratomrealtalk.com. I would love to have you there with us. Now let's get on to today's episode. So I'm here with Leah Lydon, somebody I've met through the power of the Internet, social media, TikTok, and our Kratom Real Talk community over on the school platform with no censorship. Leah, I'm so glad you wanted to come on and Share your story. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me and of course thank you for doing this. It was definitely you and Jordan on TikTok that encouraged me to give kratom leaf leaf a try again.

2:03 It's been less than a year of my full time, you know, with intent using kratom and how I found it again. Well, let me start. Let me let me go back about 3 years ago. I heard about kratom and I heard that a little bit was like a stimulant more was like an opiate. And I was like, OK, that might be something nice to do at night to relax and everything. I do have my green card, so I'm not, you know, unfamiliar with plant medicine. And I tried to take a lot of it because I wanted to get that relaxed feeling. And I just threw up. What?

2:44 The Oh no, it was. It, well, it is the probably one of the worst things I've ever had to taste in my life. So I couldn't even take, I couldn't even take it. So I threw it out, wound up just just tossing it saying this is not for me, this is not for me. Fast forward a couple of years, I hear on TikTok all about kratom and how it's helping people with pain. And then I I actually saw Jordan talking about addiction and I was like, OK, because I do have a history of substance abuse issues big time. So I went to the smoke shop and I said do you have kratom and they said yes. He handed me feel free.

3:30 Oh. I said OK oh it has cava in it too. So I took it and tried to get it down and I did. I got about half of the bottle down and I felt great. I did I I was able to get things done and I thought that this was kratom kratom. So I was doing 1 bottle on my day off to get the house clean. And then I found out that it's this seven OH, which I had really no idea even existed, never even really heard about it. And then I started seeing more and more and more on TikTok about people that were addicted to them. So I said, let me switch over back to the leaf. And I listened to you and your recommendations and I ordered some from New Hope Botanicals and Christopher's Organic Botanicals.

4:21 And that that's it. My life hasn't been the same since I am. It's replaced antidepressants, anti anxiety, ADHD meds. I I, I can't. I don't even. It's done a lot. It's done a lot for you. Wow, there's a lot to unpack here. First of all, Feel free is a kratom cava extract. It's not a 708 product, but it is a, you know, extract is going to be much stronger than leaf. So I, you know, when I said, uh oh, it's because I, I hate when somebody for the very first time, that's their experience is trying an extract because it's going to be super strong, Whereas I'm all about natural leaf kratom, which I think is just the best thing ever. So, but it's not a seven O each product that there are a lot of seven O each products on the market right now, but it's not that particular extract.

5:22 Then that's good. That's good. So that's good. You didn't. You didn't go down down that road. But yeah, natural leaf. I, I just a big fan of it. It's great to hear that is helping you so much and being able to stop taking a bunch of pharmaceuticals. Why don't we kind of back up like prior to even before three years ago when you first discovered it. Tell us a little bit about yourself and like life before kratom ever even came into the picture. Yeah, well, I had a, a pretty rough childhood as far as the household that I lived in. Very strict, very, I don't want to say traditional, but that old school Italian type growing up, it was definitely abusive. You know, they call it love off love if you would, but it was definitely abusive.

6:18 It it definitely led me to substances for sure. By the time I was 17, I was full blown alcoholic, full blown and also probably addicted to benzos by the time I was 17. By the time I was 24, I had three DU is and I actually did some time in jail for that, which you know, was what I needed because I wasn't having any consequences for my actions. So I did need that. So that was all before the age of like 25. So it was a rough, rough couple of years there. Many years after that, I wound up going back to school, got my degree in social work.

7:12 Then I went, had my children, wound up going back and getting my masters. I was raised raising them as a single mom. So it's always been very rough for me. I've always struggled significantly with my mental health. It runs in the family, but that's why I became social worker and and that's, you know, that's why I do what I do. I've always had my medical card as as soon as it was legal and that I will always keep. But I haven't drank alcoholically for about 18 years. My son's 18, so I'll have, well, it's funny because kratom kind of keeps me in check. If you would, I, I really do feel that it gives you a personalized treatment plan.

7:56 If you would, it kind of knows what you need. So like, I it, it, I, if I have a drink, one drink, it will dehydrate me to the point of instant issues like Constipation, if that makes sense. And I drink a ton of water. So like, it keeps me in check. Like I can't even have one because I, I will be sick the next day. Like I won't even be able to. So, but yeah, so I got into substances. I, I wound up kind of white knuckling it trying to avoid the pharmaceuticals. And eventually I did get on them. Like I told you, multiple, multiple of them. But even then, like with my ADHD meds, I would look for a way to abuse it.

8:38 I would snort them. I would snort them high functioning, getting ready for work, you know, masters level clinician have a look my clinical license and I'll start my Adderall, you know, just to like, I don't know, have that attic behavior and but yeah, that that well, that was before kratom, you know, and now I found it. So it's just completely changed my life. I, I, I, I can't believe that there's just nothing really good on research that points to good because I, I guess we're maybe new in it. I, I don't know if there is going to be studies, but it's very, very helpful.

9:21 And everything on the Internet is negative. Very few even like, you know, I went to my old colleges like studies, the research project, everything's negative. Everything is negative. Yeah, there's a lot of negative information out there. There are studies that have been done and are currently being done. There's not enough of them. We need more and. And I think that if more information went to the public about the research, things would be different. But you don't hear about it. That's like part. That's why I think I, I try to change that. I try to make videos talking about, I did one recently about kratom and seizures because scientists and researchers have looked at this and there's no concrete evidence that kratom causes seizures. But people like to go around saying it does because like maybe one person went to an ER suffering from a seizure that happened to take kratom.

10:20 And then they decide, OK, let's put out to the world that this plant causes that. But there, there are research studies done. Actually, what's interesting that you may not know, the FDA did a study on natural kratom a few years ago and they found that it was safe. Have they released that publicly and put it on their website? No, they have not. But they have done it. They've talked about it. They've they've everybody it, you know, in this kratom science world knows about it, but the public doesn't. And and that needs to change. Of course we know why, right? We know why. We know why because it it's going to replace too many medications and the list of side effects on those medications that people, oh, I don't know what's in this and that like, have you heard the side effects of what you're putting in your body? You know, death seizure, you know, anal leakage, you're going to just pop that so easily.

11:18 But this plant that I'm telling you, it's an individualized treatment plan per person because what it does for you, it has might not be what it does for me, you know, off off label for me is it does help me with pain. I have scoliosis. I've always had a bad back. So I don't take it for pain, but it actually kind of helps. But because I think I'm not using it for that, like my back still hurts a lot, but my mood, the depression, the ADHD and let me also say this. I have 0 cravings, 0 cravings for alcohol. ADHDI haven't touched my my ADHD meds. I haven't even thought about it.

12:03 But you know, I'm not allowed to drink with it. It it keeps me in check, but you know, it eliminated all the cravings. And that's the only thing in my entire life that has ever kept me like on the straight and narrow, even with my my green card. It used to be you're ripping it all day. Now it's a little gummy at night and then I go to bed it, it's like how you're supposed to be doing it. And I can't believe it. I, I, I can't believe it. And I have IBS. Irritable bowel also helps with that. It's cured it basically, you know. That's incredible.

12:43 A lot of people with with IBS and Crohn's talk about how it helps them tremendously and that they're actually better since using natural kratom. Yeah, I also find that it kind of forces me into self-care because I can't take it in the morning without eating or I will throw up period. Every time. I take 4, four grams about my morning, all my doses, and if I don't eat first, I will get physically ill and I don't get hunker cues. I have my own, you know, relationship with food too. Of course, I got everything. So it forces me to take care of myself. It forces me to get up and eat where I might not for 2-3 in the afternoon otherwise.

13:28 So I have it forces me to eat, it forces me to drink water. It keeps me away from alcohol. And even if I want to have one, I'm going to pay for it. Like it's, it's, I don't know, it's helping me with my hot flashes because I'm in menopause. I had a hysterectomy last year, so it thrusted me into menopause. I'm convinced that it's the kratom. I did find one, one article about how kratom is affecting Women's Health in a positive way because it, you know, it attaches to the endorphins and right before hot flashes, your endorphins like get really, really low. So if you keep that, like I'm keeping my levels, I don't even know how it really works, but I'm keeping my levels kind of even I'm having like 2 hot flashes a day.

14:17 I was having like 90. Wow, It it's an amazing plant. It it's like a magical plant that it does so many things. Yep, I I I find it like almost having a spiritual connection to it. Yeah, it knows what a lot of people say that. A lot of people say that to me because of of how great it works. I've been using it every day for the last 6 1/2 years for my chronic pain. I still when I take my kratom like so grateful and cannot believe how much this helps me and allows me to not be taking high doses of narcotics anymore.

14:59 I know I've heard of all the the, the medications that you were on and people that can't even get out of bed and now they now they can. Yeah, with one thing it is very it's it's a sacred, sacred plant. You know, our, it's been used for what, thousands of years or yeah, I mean, they know, they know what to do. You know, just like I, I trust traditional Chinese medicine as well. You know, they've been around for like 5000 years. They must know something. They know what they're doing. Yes, they do. Yes they do. And I am just just really, really, really grateful for it. It's, you know, like I said, ADHD, depression, anxiety and then see PTSD.

15:43 So like chronic PTSD from childhood, menopause, addiction. I I mean. What else can? The list goes on and on. Right, the only issue I have is that it does not sedate me at all. It doesn't to me either, but when people talk about it, I'm like, lucky you. They take like they'll say red for bed and that like it's so relaxing. They sleep so good. I'm like, you didn't do that to me. I got a red. I got a red Bali that I'll be up scrubbing my my ceilings. It's the whites don't get me any type of way. I use all whites, greens, Reds and I just switch them up it I don't find one different than the other really.

16:28 I did. I wish I did, like, I want to get relaxed too from it, but the amount that I probably would need to take, you know, to say like if maybe if you use more, you would OK. I get sick. I get sick. I have to constantly remember that added mindset out. More is not better. More is not. Yeah, we, we. Say that a lot to people their news like less is more, less is more because a lot of people think oh I need to take a lot for those that come from pain management that took a lot of opioids, the assumption is I took a lot of opioids I'm going to need a lot of this that's not necessarily true People that come from addiction. Well, I just always took all this stuff and they assume I got to do that with this plant.

17:12 And that's not necessarily true either. I know some people that only take like 1/4 teaspoon and get what they need out of it. And then I know people that take 3 tablespoons to get what they're what they're looking for. But it affects everybody differently. That's what's so fascinating about the plant. Yeah, I, I just wish I could take it on an empty stomach in the morning because I, I, I was listening to 18. Well, one of the times I've heard you say it about how you keep the pressed tablets from for Especioso. Especioso. Yeah, and. I was like, I, I, I can't, I, I can't do it because I would love. I know that it would give me that jolt that I need in the morning. Yeah, I can't.

17:56 Interesting. Well, why? Because it's telling. Me No, you need to eat. But it's so interesting. Because you know what, this topic has come up quite a few times on TikTok in, in my chats over there where we've talked about empty stomach versus full stomach. And it's, it's a discussion we've had off and on for years now. And what I've come to determine is about half the people that talk about this topic say works great on an empty stomach, works better for them, no problem. Whereas another half the other half is like, oh, I got to take it with food. It doesn't work for me well or I get nauseous if I don't take it with food. And it just goes back to it affects everybody differently. When I first started, I was taking it with food. And I'm like, why is this taking so long to kick in? Why is this not as effective?

18:45 Why is this not lasting as long? And I'm like, let me try it on an empty stomach. And it was like, oh, my God, this was like night and day for me. And I don't get nauseous at all. So it's interesting how it's affecting you. That's very different. Yeah. It's because I, I won't, I won't take care of myself. I'll, I'll get up. I'll. I cook both my kids hot breakfast every morning and not one for myself. Yeah. So taking better care of myself and it's. And it's. Not expensive. It's not expensive for such a healing and helping product plant supplement.

19:26 I I don't even know what we're going to these days. Plants. I like plant, but it's not. You would think that it would be more expensive being how helpful it is, but it's not. So I mean, it's not really out of reach for a lot of. People right because it's the extracts in the seven OH products that are expensive compared to natural leaf kratom, which is a lot that was like I. Think I think it was like $10.00 for one of those little bottles. Yeah, those little. Bottles are usually $10 and and when we hear stories of people consuming a bunch of them every day, it's like, Oh my God, that that gets expensive.

20:07 If that becomes a daily habit, I don't know how you could stomach it. I I don't know how you could stomach it. It is such a foul taste. The, that whatever I try, you know, the feel free. The good thing I thought it was seven O 8. It was very strong though, to the point where I would I, I know that it was because I had that little thing in my brain that I have and I was like, oh, I like this. But I was able to keep it to once a week. I took, I only have one day off and I would take it on my day off to clean the house. But then I was like, I saw someone on TikTok who was saying they were taking like 10 or 12 a day and then they were saying something. And I was like, Oh my gosh, that's what I'm getting.

20:48 I don't want to get, I don't want to get hooked on this. It's, it's doing too much good for me. I don't, you can, I don't want to take advantage of what I have. But yeah, I, I've, I've met, you know, a couple of vendors and they're all so, so open and transparent and helpful. And it's just, I mean, of course I've had, I guess I've made a couple comments on your videos. I have all these inboxes from people by my Kratom. You know, they're definitely, I have some of those. But you know, some of the vendors I've spoken to, I'm just, and they give it to their own family. They take it. I trust it.

21:28 I trust it. If you would give it to your own family, maybe not to yourself because things into our own body that we wouldn't give to our family. But I, I found it very helpful to listen to all the, the stories on school and on TikTok. Obviously I see them in my algorithm now. But yeah, it's been, it's been a very interesting journey. Like I can't believe it. I've heard you say that too. Like every day. I can't believe this is real. And it hey, it can't be the placebo effect for everybody. Now, there's no way. And there's a plant that helps the millions of people in the USI mean just in the US alone. Well, going back to when you first heard about it, you said that was three years ago.

22:14 Do you remember like how old you heard about it? I heard that it was. Let me see. I heard of it. It was actually work related. I want to I don't was they don't consider it psychedelic, do they? No, right, Because some people. Call it that, but it's not. I was lumped in. Into a psychedelic assisted type training. It was brought up in conversation about they were calling it Kratom and they were saying, you know, it's a little bit of a stimulant and and higher doses is more like an opiate. They made, They were a little bit more dramatic about it as far as like the negative parts about it. But I was like, hey, I I I don't want to be on this Adderall. I don't want to take this every single day. I don't I'm always, always looking for something to take instead of these pills.

23:08 Yeah, but I need something. All right, I'm honest with myself, but I am definitely honest with myself. I need something. Something is definitely, you know, going on that. But the but the pills just don't do it for me. I always have a lot of side effects. I don't remember to take them and then I just fall off and I never really. So I was like, oh, let me try it. And there was a three pack and it was the brand super special. So they had a it was like a white, green and a red. It was little tiny packets like a little 3 pack or something. It might have been like 5 years. It was a couple of years ago for sure. And then I was like, I wanted to take a lot. I wanted to feel relaxed. I it didn't work, I got sick. I was like, this is disgusting.

23:54 It is an interesting taste. Some people say they like it and I, I, I don't know if you've seen this long time ago, Jordan from New Hope had a TikTok video of his mom taking a spoonful and she doesn't dry mouth with no water. And I remember seeing that video like and she says she likes it. She likes the taste and it's like, Oh my God. And not even wash it down and like I mean. Having that in your mouth, I mean, I've had, you know, I've had it break off of into my mouth and. Yeah, it is just. I keep saying I want to make the tea, I want to make the tea and drink it with a straw, but there's so many different ways. Of consume it.

24:37 I mean, I have what when I first heard about it in 2019, I was like, well, OK, so it's this powder. How do I consume this? Like I'm looking like a what? What do you do with it? And I went, I think I went to YouTube and there was this video of this guy doing toss and wash where he just took the scoop of the powder put in his mouth and then drink some water. And I watched that going, I'm not going to do it like that. That looks really gross. And I'd probably be like the cinnamon challenge, like I'd be worried I'd inhale or coughing up or whatever. So I, I started doing a bunch of research and I was in a Facebook group at the time. So I was brand new and I was asking people like, how do you consume this? And when people were talking about, you know, just mixing it with water, which is, you know, what we call the swamp water tea method. But then you said you just make get some warm water, mix it in. Don't do it with cold water because it won't mix in cold water, which is very true.

25:31 And just, you know, mix it in with some warm water and slam it down, put some juice in it. Some people pick coffee or chocolate milk, like all kinds of different things. So I just started experimenting and it was really gross the first time I remember doing orange juice cause a lot of people said orange juice and there's warm swampy muddy water were with orange with hot drink with cold orange juice. Not even. Thinking about it, it was. Not pleasant when I almost puked drinking that. But once I started and it took a little trial and error, but I, I knew I had to figure this out. But even though it tasted so bad, I'm like, I can't believe I'm trying to drink this stuff.

26:13 And it wasn't really helping at first because I, I was using red. Everybody said red for pain. And I'm like, why is this not really this magic everybody's talking about? But I knew I had to stick with it and not rush myself because I had no alternatives at the time unless I went and got a drug dealer because, you know, losing access to pain management is scary. And if you can't access the meds you've been taking for nine years every day to help your pain, what are you supposed to do? The only thought I had was I'd have to go find a drug dealer and just buy them illegally and, and no one should have to be put in that position, like forced into that position. So I was really determined to figure out this kratom thing. But once it started working, I'm like OK, it tastes bad but I'm getting pain relief from a plant which was just mind boggling at the time.

26:59 Like I can't believe instead of my Oxycontin I'm taking this. But I just, I just got over it. I said to myself, this is worth it. This is worth it to be able to use a plant instead. Absolutely. It's worth it. It's worth it. You know, I'm very picky with my food. Again, relationship with food is questionable at best. It's worth it. It's worth it. It's worth it. And my mind knows and I do the blade papes and I do capsules, mostly blade Papes because, you know, capsules. Yeah, of. Them and stuff, but I actually like the capsules from mate metros. Metrospect.

27:40 Which there's a new episode coming out actually this week, even though your episode will come out after that. But there's a new episode where we actually talk about they're capsules because they use vegan capsules. I got like a whole education on this because when I first started capsules, they didn't really work well and I just figured they weren't opening up and got all those capsule shells in your stomach anyway. But most capsules are made with animal byproducts, so they're harder to digest gelatin. Right, the gel. Yes, gelatin. So my interview with Dan, he talks all about how they're known for using the vegan capsules, and it's actually made with a tapioca starch called Poland.

28:24 Yeah. And so that that you know, so I'm definitely more interested in capsules that method. And they are bigger. They have more. So for my traditional dose, like I was out earlier and I grabbed this, I bought a sample pack from them, a bunch of different kinds. I threw it in my purse because I couldn't take my dose until after I had breakfast, of course. And I went out for breakfast with my son. So I took this and for 4/4 grams it's about 55 capsules. There's a lot. More in them. I think they were like 800 milligrams or something they advertised, but I yeah, vegan capsule polo, Polo Land or whatever that yeah, yeah, these are great. I love them.

29:07 One of my favorite brands. That's great. That's awesome. I'm so glad to hear that. Yeah. That is really interesting how they're doing capsules that way, which people rave about. A lot of people are raving about it and I've been trying their their super love what they do. Sarah and Dan are the husband and wife duo that runs that company, family run business and love their their kratom products and love that they do those vegan capsules. So that's that's great. It's finding what works for you. Bottom line, right, Leah? It's like I I still do swamp works. I'm just so used to it. It it's just part of my routine and I just, it's just what I do is see how.

29:51 That could work. And I keep saying I'm going to try it just because I know that the straw is going to be a lot better and it would be quicker. But then again, you know, for me, Madeline, you know, it's taken from mental health more so than the pain, right? So I can get out of bed. You know, it's not that I'm I need that immediate just to get moving. I need to get moving up here, you know, just like right. I just, I, I will never get over the fact of how it just does different things for different people based on what it's like. It knows what you need. And I, I, I only find that with plant medicine and natural products. I psilocybin is the same way, especially in the micro dosing people that do micro dosing for the, the magic mushrooms or whatever.

30:41 It's very, very, very personal to you. I know people that, you know, had neuropathy, it cured their neuropathy, other people, and it just does what you need. It goes right to what you need. And it goes back to the belief that everything we need is already provided on this earth. You know, if you want to say God or the universe, whatever, but it's been provided already, you know. Yeah. Were you expecting that you would not need to take so many pharmaceuticals after starting using natural leaf kratom? No, you were mentioning like. Several different. Pharmaceuticals you were taking, is it OK? That I mentioned the name absolutely. Absolutely.

31:23 I was taking. Prozac Wellbutrin, Buspar hydroxyzine as a PRN for anxiety and I never say it right methyl it like Concerta Ritalin type for the ADHD. So all those were yeah gone. So you don't take any of them not not a single one And primarily I was taking it to substitute for my Adderall because I heard energy right little bit of energy. But then I realized like, like, I don't want to die. Like, I don't feel like, you know, it would be OK if I didn't wake up, which is chronic suicidal ideation, as they call it chronic SI had it since childhood and now I don't have it.

32:09 Like I, I was like, I accidentally realized that it was helping me with the depression and anxiety, my PTSD essentially. So that was by accident, you know, and I lost my back. And also, you know, the IBS. It's a it's, it's, I mean, I'm always drinking. And it forces you into self-care it really. Does a lot of people say that I I I drink a lot of water too? I mean I already was drinking a lot of water but I definitely drink more since I become a a kratom consumer and that's not a bad thing, no? Exactly. Every, every side effect that I have gotten from it is, is for a reason. Either now or you took too much.

32:55 You can't take too much. You know the side effects. Well, you don't really need to have that one drink. You don't really need it. You don't really need it. It just forces me to take care of myself, which is, yeah, I'm great at taking care of others, but when it comes to myself, it's, you know, not as easy. Yeah. Well, the there's so many positive side effects from it. I mean, you're just been naming the, the medications you were able to stop. It's just incredible. So many times we hear negative information on the Internet about all these terrible side effects, all these negative side effects with kratom. And sure, some people have them, A lot of people don't. Most people don't.

33:42 I, I don't have any negative side effects from it. I only have positive. I like to raise awareness about that with people because it is it is a. An amazing. Plant that's that's saving lives in so many different ways. And I think that it it it helps too, that, you know, people like yourself, you know, you don't, you don't come from a background. Oh, with the addiction problems, you know, you're, you know, just from a pain perspective. So nobody can say, oh, yeah, yeah, she says it's for pain, but you know, she's probably getting high. Like that's not even something that you do. So it it definitely helps having the perspective of, you know, different people that use it and why, you know, Jordan was the one.

34:33 I didn't even know that it could be used. I mean, I've heard you know it for like opiate withdrawal, things like that, but I had no idea about the cravings that it just like kind of eliminates all together. I didn't know that. But his transparency, of course, I was like, wait a minute, like, yeah, let me try. Let let me. And then I was like, you know what? Yes, I have not thought about stopping for a six pack since I started it. I would drive by every day. So I should stop and get a six pack. I wouldn't, but I would think about it, right. Oh, it's a nice day. It's, you know, first day of fall. I should get a six pack. Oh, it's a first day of summer. I should get a sick every day. And I've realized, you know what? Haven't even had this silly thought in my head since I started it.

35:16 I have not taken an Adderall since the first day that I touched kratom with the intent of this. Still sitting there. Can't believe it. That's powerful. I was. That's. Very powerful every single day. I was it. I mean, it's not, I'm not proud of it, but yeah, I was snorting my Adderall every day for years. Like, I don't know why I just can't pop it, you know? I have to be a little, you know, you know, and I'm almost 50 years old and still playing that game with myself, you know, like very high functioning. But I'll, I started Adderall in the morning. So it's, it's the, you know, the high functioning. The deal is, is, you know, sometimes worse even when you're able to just, you know, present yourself as though everything is great, but you know, behind the scenes you're not. I feel OK.

36:11 Now I do, I feel great. I feel great. I just wish that it was a little bit more, you know, accepted in society because I love to shoot scream it from the rooftop, but I also don't want to shoot it from the rooftop. And then someone like me says, oh, I'm going to try create them. That sounds like a great idea. And they wind up going in to a smoke shop and walking out with Feel Free. It's literally what I what happened to me. I walked out with Feel Free. And that wasn't what I really wanted. I just didn't know. Just create em. Just create em, yeah? Well, that's why education is so important and why me and some other advocates are always trying to educate others. And some of the kratom companies like Christopher's, like Jordan, like Mitris Back, Sarah and Dan are big with this, where let's educate the public and give out good factual information so people have an understanding of what this is. So they're not walking into a smoke shop where you have people behind the counter that don't know anything and just pointing to a product when you say, hey, I heard about this kratom, I want to try it.

37:22 And many times right now in 2025, people are being directed to 70 H products at the smoke shop and being told this is kratom too. Oh yeah. And I've seen them, now that I know what they are, I I was looking around to see if they had it. Of course they did. Or at the counter. Very appealing. Very appealing to someone that's looking to, you know, get high. Absolutely. I would have been all over that when I was younger. I would have been. A lot of them have. Drug names I know. It was like we have Parker Opia or something, like definitely we know what you're trying to insinuate. Like Zanny bars.

38:06 I was like, but, you know, at the same time, it's probably safer than what's out on the street, right? Right, It most likely is compared to like, you know, things on the street like fentanyl and whether other drunks out there. There just needs to be more education. People need to know what these products are and just have some understanding. People are just so quick to just consume something and have no idea what it really is. I see a lot of videos like on Tiktok and YouTube or people talk about their addiction to kratom to seven O to feel free. And every single time they they all say the same thing. Yeah, I just bought it and took it. I didn't even read what it what it was. They didn't research nothing.

38:52 And it's like, well, there's got to be some accountability. I mean, you know, you should, you should know what you're consuming and. That's definite definitely the case. You know, for 7/7 OI, I've heard enough of people that are getting a lot of relief from it, but I see much more. Maybe it's just my algorithm that you are struggling with it, but it shouldn't be my, my, my, my fault or, you know, my problem that other people can't control and it shouldn't be anyone's. They, the liquor stores are still open, right? Right. Liquor's still open. That's the worst drug out there in my opinion, and most widely accessible, right. And the start, you know, it's the I believe, like that's the, you know, what do they call a gateway? Gateway, you know, drug where a lot of other drugs that, you know, a lot of times every every good story starts out with alcohol, but they're still open, you know that they're they're still, you know, thriving.

39:57 So it shouldn't be, but but I will also like, you know, like you said, like the names are so close that it's a gimmicky almost. It's gimmicky and it's with the soul to attract, you know, people that are trying to get high. Well, those manufacturers know what they're doing. Right, Exactly, exactly. And I I mean, even if you want to get high on kratom leaf, you can't. It's going to get you sick first. It's just not. Exactly. You're going to throw it up before, before that happened. I mean, but that's where extracts, because they're potent people are, are more prone to have issues because, you know, it's not going to make you sick like leaf powder will. Yeah.

40:43 Well, and then you can. Consume a lot. And then get into trouble. It won't let me abuse it. I tried and it keeps me in check. That's good. That's really good. Well, what are you doing? How about you go throw up and have? Some food before you take any. I love that. Like how your body responds to it. That's just amazing. I have a very. I think I would say spiritual connection with it, you know it. It knows what I need when I need it, and it's the only thing that doesn't change. Like alter my like, I don't say it's me and my consciousness, my sobriety. If you that I actually like like, Oh my gosh, let me see what time it is.

41:23 Am I able to take my kratom yet? And it's not because I'm high. It it it it took away all that. It took away the the yearning to get up. Yeah, away all together. And it also doesn't get you high. So it's like I could see why people over. Why would you bother? I don't it's it's just it eliminated all that craving and also doesn't get me high. So happy without it. That's a first. That's a first in 49 years. That's amazing. You have such an amazing story and, and it just, from everything you're saying, it just sounds like this is just incredible for just your day-to-day life.

42:03 I mean, you got family. How has all of that changed since kratom has come into the picture? Well, I, I would will say that I am much more present. You know, it's not that I wouldn't be present, but to the, the thoughts all day around, you know, the intrusive thoughts that go along with, you know, certain mental health situations and, or just being alive in 2025. I don't know, like a lot of constant, you know, around and around and around. And ADHD comes with executive dysfunction, right? Like not being able to like get started on things. So I'm a lot more ahead of things. Like, you know, the bills are paid in advance, the house is cleaner, You know, I meal prepping where is like, I would do it, but it would be such a pain for me to do it. And just everything, everything is better on, on that front. I have more energy at work.

43:02 I work about 70 hours a week. So I need that energy and it's energy without a crash. It's there's no feeling of coming down. Like you mean the coffee jitters. It's just I'm, I'm more present. I am. I got the energy without feeling like what the stimulant medication does to you, which isn't a good feeling. Like you're up but you feel like shaky. I don't feel that way. So I'm extremely productive at work. Just yeah, I'm just more present. Just more present physically and mentally.

43:44 That's wonderful. That's just so wonderful to hear stories like this, like just amazing positive experience with a plant and doesn't. Break the bank. That's that. That's really important. And I definitely overdo it, like so much. But it's like, you know, I don't feel it. I don't feel guilty because it's not, it's terribly expensive. It's not. It's not, Yeah. And it's just not something like you said before that you really feel comfortable talking about at work or talking to others about just because of that. What they would. Perceive well. Yeah, I mean, well, my, my one job is a remote job. I do utilization management for for insurance company. So I do like authorizations for impatient mental health things like that.

44:32 It's a very I'm not really talking to anyone anyway. I do have private small private practice where I see clients and I. Help. But it ain't going to be me. You're not going to hear it coming from me only because what if they do go into a smoke shop? The guy says try this, They do. And then now they're hooked. And it was something that I put in their ear. I don't, I just can't do it. And then, you know, you know, in other ways, the rest of it's just my business. You know, it's my business. I don't need to share my personal business with them and then with my family with my substance abuse history. If I say, oh, I got this Kratom, they all they know is what they see on the news, my family and they go along with whatever they see on their particular news station. Let's just say that.

45:26 So it's just not their business. They don't understand and you know, but I it's not, it's not like that I'm ashamed or anything like that, but it's just my business. I'm very private to begin with, to begin with. So just don't need the conversation. Tired of dealing with fighting with ignorance. It'd be more like. I'm like I'm. I'm maxed out with like, you know, explaining when people are committed to misunderstanding, why waste your time? So, but I think, you know, this isn't going to go away. I think it's only going to get stronger.

46:09 The, you know, the amount of people that see that it's helping and it's not just, you know, what you're hearing. So I think just go, I think we'll just move forward. And I think that we just, we need a lot more research studies and projects. And, you know, people in in college, they need to do more studies. Yeah. They. They definitely, it would be great to have more research on it, but that's surprisingly been quite a few studies on on it. My understanding is right now there's a study on, I believe the FDA is involved with a study on potential abuse of kratom. So that'll be interesting to see.

46:49 Like, you know what? But I just find it interesting that the FDA has done a single dose study shows it's safe, but they won't put it out there because it shows that kratom is OK, quite natural leaf kratom. And I've been told by multiple sources that the FDA was so sure it was going to kill people. It was going to hospitalize people and people are going to get super sick by, you know, consuming. And you know what's interesting, with that study they did a few years ago, it was actually superspeciosis capsules, by the way. So kudos to them that they were involved with that. They had participants take 12 grams of capsules in a 5 minute period.

47:32 So you talk about how you take 4 grams, I take about 5:00-ish. So try to imagine having to take enough capsules to equal 12 grams. That would make me puke, I'm sure. Oh yeah, I'm. I'm definitely going to get sick from that for sure, but imagine how. Many capsule shells, that's going to be in your stomach, right? And here's the worst thing that happened. A few people got nauseous. That was the worst that happened in this study that the FDA conducted that most people don't even know about. So that's. Why? That's why they couldn't schedule it right? That's why they couldn't make it a schedule one, because probably so. Probably. That's probably because how, how could they? I mean, they're going after 70 H, but how could they schedule natural leaf kratum when they themselves were involved with a study that shows that ingesting 12 grams in 5 minutes is not going to hurt anybody?

48:29 You know you. Know they. They don't want to. They don't want to get their friends in Big Pharma upset, right? Right. Well, it says interesting. When you look at like people when they leave the FDA, where do they go work at? It's always big pharma. They get a big cushy high paying job in big pharma. Yeah. And it's, you know, I don't believe or trust anyone in the government. Yeah. You know, totally understand, never did. But it's certainly not getting you know, any different, but I I I do. I do hope that and and I do see it too. I do see that that it is known out there.

49:11 You know there's a lot of people that do do different sheep between the seven O and leaf kratom that are, you know, higher up. They do understand there's a difference. So that's a good thing. Yeah, they should pull all those off the shelf, those Smurf looking thing like they're too attractive to kids to young people, they're too attractive. Get them off. There's there's a couple I I guess of of of seven O vendors online that they say they do testing, but I like the transparency and well, not not on that anyway, but on my I love that on the on the products that I buy. It says it especially Christopher's botanical like it says exactly. I don't even know what old all the ingredients really are, but you could see right on there.

49:54 Everything's very transparent. Scan a code on some of them on a lot. Yep, Yep. You can scan a code for their testing. And you know that's the only way I'm I'm gonna ever do it with the vendors that I have now. I like that a happy hippo too. I I've tried them as in the past. I think I have a whole order, a couple of orders out for delivery today. I have one too. I have order delivery. I saw, I checked my e-mail. I have a delivery coming today, some more tablets. Yeah, you know it. I think it just, it's so important to do your research so you know what you're getting and know that these are reputable brands that you're buying from. All the ones that you've mentioned or all the ones that I ones that I use that I recommend because they're very transparent. They they lab test all their products. They put the QR code on there so you can go see the certificate of analysis and know exactly what you're consuming. I think that's incredibly important, yes. Yes, I would never buy it from any of these people that are DM and me.

50:55 I was like no thank you. I've heard about, you know, salmonella, lead and and other things, you know, and then but but see, let's say I did and then I get sick and I go to the hospital and now Kratom, you know, and it becomes, oh, well, kratom makes you sick. Kratom did this target you've got poison you She's got. Yeah, right. But we have to look at the whole picture. What else was in my system? Where did I get it? What? You know, there's a lot of different factors that go into, you know, people that died from kratom. Well, yeah, but they were also taking this and this and this and this and, you know, they already had this going on in their body.

51:36 So my labs have been fine. I've had blood work probably once since I've been on my full time regimen here. Fine, totally fine, a little deficient in vitamin D. That's got nothing to do with the the kratom. That's pretty most of us are. That's a common. Yeah, that's a common 1 is just about everybody's deficient in vitamin D That's why I take a vitamin D supplement. Yeah, a long time ago my doctor said take a vitamin D supplement because, yeah, a lot, most of us are all deficient in that. That's so incredible to hear because I do the same thing. I go to my doctor once or twice a year. I always get labs and I I've told her that I take natural kratom. She didn't know anything about it, but I've been educating her. I feel good about that.

52:20 And she sees how well I'm doing and how I don't have to take narcotics. I can take this instead for my pain is she's and she's super impressed and every time my labs come back fine. I don't you know, people like to also say Kratom causes liver damage. Well, I mean things are going to affect everybody differently and somebody's going to consume kratom that could possibly have issues, but maybe there's a history of problems. Maybe their alcohol previous alcohol use was already this had. More of a problem you. Know I've I'm a healthy person, I go to the doctor, I get labs and my labs have not changed in the 6 1/2 years I've been consuming crate. I mean I've consumed it every day just like when I used used the pain meds I every day because I my this degeneration is so severe.

53:17 I've got to take something or I'm going to be like in bed not able to move and being miserable. So I'm OK with that. I understood what I got into when I started pain management years ago, but I need to take something. And I'm just super impressed that I can consume this plant every day and not have any health issues because of anything negative. Labs are always great. So it I I just think it's amazing. And I love that people like yourself come on here and share your incredible story because we need more of these stories out there so people know that this plant changes lives. Yeah, I mean. I was curious to see the labs. I was curious they, I did not tell my doctor that I'm taking it.

53:59 And there was absolutely nothing different than the year before, nothing different. Everything was pretty much the same. It has affected, you know, so far nothing negative. And like I said, any, any damage I could have done to my liver, I wasn't very concerned about it back in the day. So we're fine and everything affects your liver. So if I'm taking 5 pharmaceuticals a day, you know, I, I worked in, you know, for a while I worked in, in Group homes and these, these people were on, you know, 1213 different psych meds for years, you know, for decades. None of them, none of them live past 5055, maybe because they all developed the, I've seen twice now thyroid cancers. They, they developed stuff and I'm convinced that it's from, you know, 1213 different meds they're on, you know, 2-3 times a day, a lot of meds all day and that they're dead. I mean, I'm sure there goes other, there's other parts to it.

55:03 They don't have the healthiest diet either. But but when you're a group home, you go for your check UPS, you get your vaccine, you get everything you're supposed to. Why do you die early? I don't know, just a lot of meds processed through your liver, right. So I'll, I'll take, I'll take the hit for the positive that I'm getting from it, because it's not about me. What do I want to live to 110? No, I I don't need to live that long. But the time that I have at least this second-half of my life, maybe I won't wish I was dead. Yeah. And I think. That that, that I'll take, I'll take the, you know, take the hit to the liver, not to want to die every day. This is such a great.

55:48 Conversation I'm so glad you came on the podcast to to have this discussion with me. Last question I want to ask you is knowing everything you know about kratom, what advice would you give to someone else to help them get started in their own journey? I would definitely advise start low, start low, start low. More is not better. Check out Madeline's approved vendors list. That's what I did, yeah. Just just just start low and for the first time, don't take it on an empty stomach.

56:28 That that's just me. That's my advice. Other people are fine, but I got really sick from, you know, not taking it with food. So, but give it a try and see for yourself and take it with intent, you know, take us. I'm taking this to help myself feel better. I'm helping this for my pain. I'm helping. This is going to help. This is going to help my depression. This is going to help my anxieties. This is going to help me clean my house today. I love that. Leah, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much. For having me, I appreciate everything that you do and and the whole community. Everyone seems lovely. I I think I I think I've watched all of the create them gal really nice have Yep.

57:13 I I, I had him playing while I was at work the other day and just let him play. Yeah, it, you seem to have really created a very safe environment that that we can all just come to. Everyone's so helpful and I appreciate you and I appreciate all the vendors that that that come on your show and that you guys are great. I'm so grateful to be a part of this. And you said for the first time in my life, I just want to be alive. Wouldn't be if it wasn't for kratom. I love that. Well, thank you. Appreciate all the nice words. Thank you.